Thats exactly my point. Unless you can prove something you shouldnt base the laws and rules of humanity according to it. So I think that you agree with me, but just in a very different way. and I like that. I agree with you that religion can do good in peoples lives, but I also think that adding structure and spirituality to someones life will almost always help them find their path no matter if its religion, or just finding the right job, or a good woman. These things are good for people, which is also why I think we should not teach religion as fact since it so strongly changes lives. Like you said "unless they are "scientifically" proven, there is not really a way to make it a fact!" I think we should better examine droctrin before proclaiming it. For the most part I completely appreciate your reply, but there is one word here that is a red flag. "surrender" I'm sorry but I dont use the word surrender when I'm describing enlightenment. The word is most often used to describe defeat, failure, capture, giving up etc.... Basically you have to be defeated to surrender. I know that you may not interpret the word that way, but again I think we should examine a few issues here. I think that in religion lifes duties have been interpreted into words that describe slavery, death, pain/suffering, and blind servitude without question. I personally belive those aspects were not meant to be in the original doctrin. Its a way to skew the truth to look like something else. I do like what you said about everything changing. Although I dont think things have changed enough. It seems we have always lived by rediculous rules that follow some religion that no one can explain without saying, "you just have to believe without question." When is that going to change? I like what you said here, "everything is so individual," I believe matters of humanity should deal with things more "individually" and less "generally". Which also supports my point that we need to closely examine something before we generalize it.

So my point is that if we cant figure out what where to draw the line on excessive force then we shouldnt use it. If we cant draw the line on fact from fiction then we shouldnt live our lives by it, and especially not blindly.

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I think scrotum is a cool word.