Religion as a tool towards Spirit

[Soulewolf]

what are your thoughts on the idea of religion as a means towards god, instead of an end in itself. like a tool. there are many kinds of tools that do many different things. but i could have a wrench, and you could have a hammer? but we are ultimately working on the same project?

[Aaron Benjamin]

i think you are probably right, but something about this doesn't seem so fair to me for the religious people especially since they were promised rewards for being religious in the world to come (in the torah mean) etc.

[Soulewolf]

i think you are probably right, but something about this doesn't seem so fair to me for the religious people especially since they were promised rewards for being religious in the world to come (in the torah mean) etc.

if you believe a religion strictly for the rewards, do you have such a good relationship with god to begin with? i dunno. tell me more!

[existencebeyondexperience]

indeed. to do good only for the heaven part is selfish, though antithetical to the selfless nature of most beliefs regarding spirituality.

of course, how often do you see raw, naked spirituality in the organized religions? (and not just euphoria disguised as spirituality, without any thought at all)

[rabana]

religion as a means toward god becomes spirituality.

[Soulewolf]

indeed. to do good only for the heaven part is selfish, though antithetical to the selfless nature of most beliefs regarding spirituality.

of course, how often do you see raw, naked spirituality in the organized religions? (and not just euphoria disguised as spirituality, without any thought at all)

ya know, i think its a beautiful thing that i see more and more people calling themselves "Christian" with a real grasp and relationship with god. its actually rather uplifting even if our beliefs are opposing. there was this awesome person who replied to one of my threads that i had a nice PM conversation with about this subject.

[Aaron Benjamin]

if you believe a religion strictly for the rewards, do you have such a good relationship with god to begin with? i dunno. tell me more!

hi sarah(?), i read in the writings of the rebbe mhm shlita that in order to begin serving g*d one must begin with alterior motives and then eventually strive to do so without ego etc. i also heard seemingly the opposite as well (rabbi tzvi homnick.) according to what i am now being told most of the people i met in my lifetime who were religious were actually left wing party members also with an additional angelic type soul, which i never had nor knew anything about until a few months ago. so maybe my involvement with relgion was more out of desepration searching for a solution for all of the pain and problems in my and my family's etc. life, whereas for most people it was a premediated directive similar to joining the army, getting a job working in a restaurant or a night club etc. who then has a better relationship with g*d in that case? i don't know, i just hope that the redemption as foretold in the torah which i was trusting all this time was legitimate - is going to come and that it is going to be real and not feel like left wing manipulation (and garbage - (for example depression and disappointments etc.)) as much of the exile has to me etc.

---------- Post added at 02:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 AM ----------

indeed. to do good only for the heaven part is selfish, though antithetical to the selfless nature of most beliefs regarding spirituality.

of course, how often do you see raw, naked spirituality in the organized religions? (and not just euphoria disguised as spirituality, without any thought at all)

hi sarah(?), i think of selfishness as being a kind of spiritual illness or shortcoming, immaturity atleast, usually stemming from a confused mind or an unhealthy psyche etc. generally in judaism, 'for the sake of heaven' is viewed as being a positive and not a negative thing etc. according to what i learned.

---------- Post added at 02:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 AM ----------

religion as a means toward god becomes spirituality.

hi angela(?), i do remember thinking to myself when i was first becoming religious (after leaving isralight) that in general secular people seem to be more alive and spiritual than do religious people. at that point i had already been convinced that the torah was true and that i needed to follow it etc.


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---------- Post added at 02:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:38 AM ----------

ya know, i think its a beautiful thing that i see more and more people calling themselves "Christian" with a real grasp and relationship with god. its actually rather uplifting even if our beliefs are opposing. there was this awesome person who replied to one of my threads that i had a nice PM conversation with about this subject.

i had two landlords by divine providence who i enjoyed discussing about christianity with as they were both very spiritual people etc. however aside from them almost all of my exposure to christianity throughout my life has left me with an intuitive feeling that it is artificial and not so real etc.