no pain...

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-03-2009

"For those whom HaShem loves, He rebukes." (Mishlei: 3; 12) If suffering comes upon the person, he should bear [it] and accept [it]. Why [should he accept the suffering]? [The person should accept the suffering], for there is no end to receiving the reward [for that suffering].[6] (Tanchuma, Ki Seitzei, 2) "Be silent for HaShem and wait patiently for Him." (Tehillim: 37; 7) Constantly await The Holy One, Blessed is He, if He brings suffering upon you, do not spurn it, rather accept it like flutes (Meaning: Instruments) "[7]. Bearing the humiliation [suffered from others] is in the category of suffering, as mentioned earlier, "They act out of love [of HaShem] and are happy with suffering."
Shmiras HaLashon - ????? ?????: Shmiras HaLashon ?"? ??? - Teves 12 - One-Hundred-and-Second Day

i am wondering would you say that depression would be a form of suffering or of sinning from an objective point of view?
Chapter 12 - Igeret HaTeshuva

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**rabana** · 12-04-2009

suffering. do people tell you it is sinning?

can i move this thread to health and healing or spirituality forum?

**Calibas** · 12-04-2009

Sin and suffering have the same roots.

**Aion** · 12-04-2009

Depression comes from our ability to rationalize our world. When you become depressed or otherwise sick, what happens? You start wishing you were well again; you start remembering what it was like when you were healthy and happy. That's where the unhappiness really comes from. I don't mean to sound like a new age douche bag, but the unhappiness comes from being too attached to being happy. In wanting to be happy so badly, we make ourselves unhappy - maybe our expectations are too high? Naturally, we're hardwired to want to be healthy and happy, but it's never healthy to strive for unrealistic goals, especially in the health and happiness department, as many of us do.

It's all about perspective. If you're convinced you're a sinner, then whatever suffering comes your way becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of punishment, doesn't it? What if you're blameless, and the suffering you're enduring actually has a purpose? I'm sick right now. I have tendonitis of the eye and the only reason I'm here is because Excedrin is my new best friend. I also have some kind of virus that's been going around. But without these things, I wouldn't have been able to make this post. I also wouldn't have proven to myself how dedicated I am to my job and my family. So as far as I'm concerned, what's really come from being sick is simple: my insecurities are evolving into securities.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be well and happy. I want to be healthy again, and it's that desire that propels us to improve our lives, but what I've noticed is that a lot of people are becoming depressed or afraid over what are ultimately trivial things, and I think the suffering helps us step back and appreciate what really matters: health, love, friends and family, the ability to function on par with the rest of society, which I personally don't have right now because I'm experiencing perpetual double vision that causes severe migraines and nausea.

**beautifulmind** · 12-04-2009

I basically agree with Aion that suffering has value in that it helpes us to learn, grow and appreciate the opposite of suffering. To equate it with sin seems to have a negative connotation (for me). Sin implies (to me) that I was wrong or bad in some way and that I deserve to suffer. It then makes suffering feel like a punishment. But currently in my life I feel like suffering is a natural part of life and I have learn more to accept it when I experience it and I feel like because of this I have less depression than I had in the past.

I guess I don't get these ideas of needing to be free from suffering. It often feels like a trap or some set up for a fall. As if I happen upon some suffering, I must have screwed up somewhere and therefor I am inferior to those who claim to be free from suffering. Sorry, I just feel like that is BS at this point in my life

I can experience suffering as well as joy and harmony.

**Calibas** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by Aion

Depression comes from our ability to rationalize our world.

Agreed, though I wouldn't call depression rational. I guess it would be more of our ability to irrationalize our world.

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by rabana

suffering. do people tell you it is sinning?

can i move this thread to health and healing or spirituality forum?

i think that both rebbe nachman and chabad consider depression to be a sin. i guess i may be a pretty big sinner in that way maybe, or maybe not, i don't really know for sure.

---------- Post added at 12:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Calibas

Sin and suffering have the same roots.

sometimes i wonder.

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Aion

Depression comes from our ability to rationalize our world. When you become depressed or otherwise sick, what happens? You start wishing you were well again; you start remembering what it was like when you were healthy and happy. That's where the unhappiness really comes from. I don't mean to sound like a new age douche bag, but the unhappiness comes from being too attached to being happy. In wanting to be happy so badly, we make ourselves unhappy - maybe our expectations are too high? Naturally, we're hardwired to want to be healthy and happy, but it's never healthy to strive for unrealistic goals, especially in the health and happiness department, as many of us do.

It's all about perspective. If you're convinced you're a sinner, then whatever suffering comes your way becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of punishment, doesn't it? What if you're blameless, and the suffering you're enduring actually has a purpose? I'm sick right now. I have tendonitis of the eye and the only reason I'm here is because Excedrin is my new best friend. I also have some kind of virus that's been going around. But without these things, I wouldn't have been able to make this post. I also wouldn't have proven to myself how dedicated I am to my job and my family. So as far as I'm concerned, what's really come from being sick is simple: my insecurities are evolving into securities.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be well and happy. I want to be healthy again, and it's that desire that propels us to improve our lives, but what I've noticed is that a lot of people are becoming depressed or afraid over what are ultimately trivial things, and I think the suffering helps us step back and appreciate what really matters: health, love, friends and family, the ability to function on par with the rest of society, which I personally don't have right now because I'm experiencing perpetual double vision that causes severe migraines and nausea.

hi, i think that connection with a woman is a key to happiness for a child or a man, a connection of the soul etc.

**rabana** · 12-04-2009

i wasn't sinning during my 40+years of depression starting at age 3 and neither are you aaron. shame on the rebbes and anyone who pushes that.

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by beautifulmind

I basically agree with Aion that suffering has value in that it helpes us to learn, grow and appreciate the opposite of suffering. To equate it with sin seems to have a negative connotation (for me). Sin implies (to me) that I was wrong or bad in some way and that I deserve to suffer. It then makes suffering feel like a punishment. But currently in my life I feel like suffering is a natural part of life and I have learn more to accept it when I experience it and I feel like because of this I have less depression than I had in the past.

I guess I don't get these ideas of needing to be free from suffering. It often feels like a trap or some set up for a fall. As if I happen upon some suffering, I must have screwed up somewhere and therefor I am inferior to those who claim to be free from suffering. Sorry, I just feel like that is BS at this point in my life

I can experience suffering as well as joy and harmony.

it seems to me that i have been suffering increasing less since i became an angel b'h, since a few months ago now.

**beautifulmind** · 12-04-2009

A little story... I had joined this church in my 20's and at the same time I was experiencing extreme depression and probably what is described as psychosis and I went to the pastor to talk to him about it and do you know what he told me? That my soul was not right with god (translation: my depression was a result of sin). Hmmm... turns out I was coming out of a decades old period of dissociative behavior due to extreme abuse in my childhood. Needless to say I left the church and never looked back.

Good luck Aaron.

**Calibas** · 12-04-2009

I'd like to suggest a difference between the ideas of suffering and pain. Pain is a feeling and when we consider that feeling to be bad (related to the idea of sin) it creates suffering. Pain is a physical or emotional sensation, while suffering occurs in the mind in reaction to that sensation. What this means is that one is able to conscious sever the connection between the two. And then there's no more suffering, and then pain isn't really painful.

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by rabana

i wasn't sinning during my 40+years of depression starting at age 3 and neither are you aaron. shame on the rebbes and anyone who pushes that.

i don't really like depressed people myself and i don't like myself that much either in some ways etc.

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by beautifulmind

A little story... I had joined this church in my 20's and at the same time I was experiencing extreme depression and probably what is described as psychosis and I went to the pastor to talk to him about it and do you know what he told me? That my soul was not right with god (translation: my depression was a result of sin). Hmmm... turns out I was coming out of a decades old period of dissociative behavior due to extreme abuse in my childhood. Needless to say I left the church and never looked back.

Good luck Aaron.

thanks. my rabbi told me to get a job. he may have been right atleast partially, but i just didn't want to spend the rest of my life telemarketing etc. especially when i get paid more from the goverment (after being in the hospital etc.) for doing nothing etc. then i would get paid at telemarketing anyways. not to mention that i lost 3 telmarketing jobs in the past all for suspecting my fellow co-workers of being communists etc.

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Calibas

I'd like to suggest a difference between the ideas of suffering and pain. Pain is a feeling and when we consider that feeling to be bad (related to the idea of sin) it creates suffering. Pain is a physical or emotional sensation, while suffering occurs in the mind in reaction to that sensation. What this means is that one is able to conscious sever the connection between the two. And then there's no more suffering, and then pain isn't really painful.

when i used to play hockey as a teenager i used to get really into the game and sometimes i would get injured even with blood etc. but i would not even really feel the pain until later when i would get home after the game. i think we used to play those hockey games with heart, sweat and soul that may have been why i enjoyed it so much (even though i was already an emotionally depressed person at that time in general...)

**rabana** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by Aaron Benjamin

i don't really like depressed people myself and i don't like myself that much either in some ways etc.)

whenever i was super depressed i avoided people because i figured they didn't need that. so i know what you mean but its not sin. forgive yourself forgive yourself forgive yourself forgive yourself release it.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------

for one thing aaron if you do want to be able to help out in the world in an active way, to the best of your abilities, self forgiveness is necessary. do it for others as well as yourself.

my definition of sin: thinking only about me-me-me and what i want-want-want.
goodness knows that we are all one all connected all part of the same process.

so just being screwed up isn't necessarily sin.

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by rabana

whenever i was super depressed i avoided people because i figured they didn't need that. so i know what you mean but its not sin. forgive yourself forgive yourself forgive yourself forgive yourself release it.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------

for one thing aaron if you do want to be able to help out in the world in an active way, to the best of your abilities, self forgiveness is necessary. do it for others as well as yourself.

my definition of sin: thinking only about me-me-me and what i want-want-want.
goodness knows that we are all one all connected all part of the same process.

so just being screwed up isn't necessarily sin.

hi rabana, i don't think that my psychological and emotional problems etc. are neccesarily related to blaming myself for anything. the only thing i did which potentially could have been a cause for blaming myself afterwards (in my view) was when i publically accused my rabbi, some friends from yeshiva and then my step mother and step brother of being communists etc. which resulted in my becoming increasingly socially isolated and ostracized in society, even among my own family and friends etc. but i never really blamed myself for this since i felt that i was justified in what i did, though i regretted all of the negative things that were tied up with the whole issue etc. at a later time (after the murder of my friends who were involved with jahg usa, if i am not mistaken) i tried to bring myself to forgive and make peace with the people who i had previously accused by telling myself that a) if g*d allowed this to happen to my friends in jahg then it must not have been the will of g*d what we were doing exactly or atleast the way we were doing it and b) i said to myself that i have no proof that these people are communists and even if they are i don't really know what that means, so who am i to judge and why should i appoint myself as being their judge etc.? previously i had reasoned that 'a danger to life pushes off the whole torah etc.'

**rabana** · 12-04-2009

whats the deal about communists? almost all of the communist regimes have fallen long ago.

so you're not a self hating jew? thats good.

aaron a child growing up in an unhealthy environment is most likely an abused child. the parents are supposed to protect the child. it lays a deep foundatiion for later problems.

**Grandma Lola** · 12-04-2009

Sin does not exsist! That should answer part of your question.

**Aaron Benjamin** · 12-04-2009

Originally Posted by rabana

whats the deal about communists? almost all of the communist regimes have fallen long ago.

so you're not a self hating jew? thats good.

aaron a child growing up in an unhealthy environment is most likely an abused child. the parents are supposed to protect the child. it lays a deep foundatiion for later problems.

hi angela(?), i am being told that most of the people i have ever encountered in my life have all been left wing party members singing the 'party line' or 'playing out the party drama' as it were, whereas i had always been unaware of this completely as i went through my path in life. this is bothering me on some level because it makes everything that i thought was real now retroactively feel more fake, cold calculated and premeditated etc. but then again who am i to judge? i don't know. i am not trying to judge just to express how it is making me feel. i didn't say that i was not a self hating jew. i said that i am a person with not very good self esteem, such that it seems pretty difficult for me to function normally in most situations, social or other. i felt that i was treated as a child by my step mother etc. like a second class citizen in the home, in terms of buying clothing for example, she would always take her own children to buy them clothing, but for me i would always (almost) receive the hand-me-downs, other people's leftovers etc. this for example can have an effect on a person's psychology and self worth particularly if they are still with a very childhood type mentality which i was and in some ways remain until today. i think that in some ways my growth was stumped when my mother became ill. that is just one example. my goal here is not to blame my step mother for my problems and even before i discovered that she is g*d, i did not do that, i just thought of her as being someone with her own (possibly serious) psychological issues that were now rubbing off on me and the family as well etc.

---------- Post added at 02:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Grandma Lola

Sin does not exsist! That should answer part of your question.

according to who?