Gnosticism, gnosticism, & Paganism.

[Stardog Champion]

for some reason you don't respect my truth but i can respect someone i don't like truth treat me with the respect i give you that's all i asked in all my thread debate the fact you guys insult me

Wrong again, my man. I do respect your truth and kudos to you for being awake in this day and age. I mean that. The thing is, you did come out as if you were trying to impose your truth on others...or at least me, cuz I can only speak for myself.

See, the difference here is that I understand where you're coming from. I really do. I know the expectation and anticipation that we feel about sharing something important when we've just come to discover it. Problem is that, as I've already said, you approached it from the wrong angles. And, honestly, I believe you still have much to learn and DISCERN, before you can start spreading your message. Spreading it, mind you. Not ramming it down people's throats, dude.

[tmt]

Interesting TMT thanks for sharing that. I do tend to think of Abrahamic as non gnostic due to the decidely monotheist and rigid religions that spang from him, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. In terms of his personal experience, I suppose I haven't thought about it in a long time since I'm not a huge fan of OT.

And thank you for adding the rest too ...starting with God does not require the intercession of religion or others interpreting the relationship of God

That is what drew me to the philsophy in the first place. It's very empowering.

You are very welcome

I like the alternative scripture of Abraham. The stories of his birth and being raised in a cave to avoid the wrath of Nimrod. The stories of how he used to talk to the icons of the various Gods, asking them questions and laughing at the idea of a dead statue being more powerful than even one man. I especially like his death, the way he gives death the brush off and death is like, "oh shizzle, what am I gonna tell the boss?" lol, its really funny.

That is what I love about Gnostic view, it is tolerant not just 'rant' lol. It gives a surety that does not require validation, which is empowering. And it opens the heart to so many unspoken things in the world. The meeting with no place or time to hold it. We meet by the river, fellow gnostic The stream of esoteric knowledge.

[Celticknot]

Good (God) vs. Evil vs the Ego and another shift in counciouness that will take us someplace we probably shouldn't go and we know this because we did it before.

4 basic threads of thought on good and evil (from a personal pov I don't believe in evil as it is traditionally known. I can't find anything that is truly evil in the natural world.)

Monistic . We are good and evil, light and dark. So is God.

Dualistic . God is always good and God alway has a villian like the devil . Or another God or lot's of them that don't like us.

Sin or Evil as ignorance or stupidity (my personal favorite) People tend not to like this theory for obvious reasons and because the consequences of intentioned stupidity and inadvertent stupidity tend to be the same so even your good intentions don't bail you out when you were stupid. Ego is the devil.

Original sin. We were born evil and must strive always to over come and struggle. (Introduced when dualism wasn't catching on real good and we needed someone, anyone, to blame for our bad as long as it wasn't ourselves or god)

There's more but those are the major big hitters that we as a collective race grew up with..

I might add that evil and good is a subjective term and dependant only on the perceptions of the individual. If God decided it was to rain on Saturday during your BBQ does that make god evil? I think not, but you may think otherwise depending on how fearful the ego is.

We began as monistic long time ago. We generally accepted that it was God that was good and bad. We accepted that we were light and dark as well. Roman Greco gods tend to reflect how we made Gods over in our image. Petty and benevolent they did cool kind things, they did stupid things. They did mean things. Just like us.

Dualistic. Zoraoster was among those who introduced this concept. God is good but there is a villian or antagonist that God must always struggle wtih. We are good too, so must always struggle to resist God's' antagonist(s). Do I need to mention the big C word? No? Didn't think so.

When the concept of moniistic got too much for our limited logic and counciouness--"How can we be good and bad? How can god be good and bad?I want to be all good because being good and bad is sorta like a tarnished coin. I want to be like god"--- The counciouness divided itself (shifted) in terms of good and bad. However just because you decide to be all good or make that your goal doesn't mean your essence-al nature dries up. It became more of a struggle: If I am now all good how come I still do bad things? So there is always going to be struggle and uncertainty. What happened during this time is that ego was either introduced or came way forward into our awareness and it began to bite us in the ass. Ego is that split in counciousness, that denial of our essential selves personaified in counciouness and it was created through uncertainty (am i good?bad?both?neither?) It came to be a coach of the good and bad in us maybe so we didnt' drive ourselves crazy with this struggle. But it doesn't do a very good job. But if we had just accepted our essential nature in the first place and worked on balancing our light and dark sides, we'd be in much better shape today. Maybe. I'd like to think so anyway.

Ego: Fear of yourself. Ego tells you that you are worthless and no good. Or Ego will tell you that you are the cat's ass. Because we don't like to be afraid we began to cater to the Ego in order to shut it's fear mongering up in some fashion or another.We may just agree when the Ego tells us we are without worth, disconnect from source, and be Eyeore. Or we may be overly conceited in an attempt to convince ourselves in our fear that we are with worth. If you truly believe you are the cat's ass, deep in your heart, I will be the first person to pat you on the head. Some people are capable of that sort of divine acceptance and are universally loathed by those who don't have it.

So that brings us towards the present. The last 3 decades or so we have trended back towards monistic view of ourselves. We are good and bad and we better just deal with it and use that as a means of sitting on the fear mongering ego. Because it's a coach of confusion, and if we are not confused about who we are, then it can't do anything. I think a lot of us are thinking in terms of this, light and dark and balance. Because the ego does very well live in both paradigms. It doesn't pick sides, we know this. It goes to wherever it will be fed because it is always hungry. You can be a dark egotistical son of a bitch or you can be a smug self righteous ego who hides in the light. But if there is acceptance of both, balance, you can keep a lid on the ego and allow it out only when it serves you. We will no longer cater to ego, let it serve us.

Now...we have a problem though. The same problem we had when dualism was introduced allowing the ego to snatch hold of our existence (and that caused all sorts of shit, you know).

Some people go to this ...'other place' They don't like the idea of being good and evil. They don't like the work it entails, cause it's long arduous and suffering to get in touch with the true self. I'ts easier just to skip it all together and just proclaim 'I am all good' like our forebears did.

But now they are doing something that our forebears didn't....

They deny their human nature all together, skipping all that self work of balancing light and dark like our forebears did by choosing the all good of dualism. They are JUST GOOD by default because.....

tthey aren't human anyway.

They have decided not to be human in order to avoid all this heavy soul labor that goes along with being a human.

They are from outer space, or were a unicorn in all previous existences, or a reincarnated whale in a human body. I mean the number of deflections and denials are legion. Unless you are completely living in some 4D or 5D reality and I know you are not because you have internet access then you are in fact human and not a flying dolphin under your human skin. It's not enough to be a Indigo, because Indigos are still human so we have to create all these sub sets and qualifers to make us even more special and less human. We are all spirits living in a material craving body, so we will always have the struggle of light and dark. Until we make the choice to balance them. Then it's bye bye ego.

Understand not everyone went to that dualistic place, this is where our old wisdoms of who we used to be before we fucked everything up came in. We had to hide those wisdoms because some Dualistic ego bearer (of any reilgion or culture) may be threatened by it. Something had to remain behiind to remind of our true , if flawed, human nature. Not necessarily our origins, or who created us, or what gods hated us, or who god really was, or what is the correct way to worship. Those wisdoms stayed ONLY so we could know that we were not born evil, we were not all good or all bad. That's all. It doesn't matter there's some fearsome statue of some demurgical god in the ruins of the desert that let's us know that God isn't all he was cracked up to be. It doesn't matter. What mattered is what and who we are.

However if we continue towards this trend of going into complete denial of our human nature--"I'm an alien, I am a dolphin, I am all good bordering on Godhood!" we are going to shift our counciouness again into something or someplace we didn't like just like we did when dualism kicked us in the ass. That great shift that people speak of in coucnioucness may not be what it is cracked up to be....for some of us. We may just introdcue another coach or ego, a super super super ego maybe. Sound fun?

[cerise333]

Very well put i didn't know you were a pagan gnostic ok what you say is right i just had to make you taste your own medicine how did it feel to be taken out of context even though you know what the truth is just to hate

is there a thanx but no thanx button here? I think we should add it hahahaha

[cerise333]

I have a question does paganism also has to do with worshiping things such as images or objects? wouldnt that make a lot of religions pagan then? I mean yeah... it also refers to people in the Roman empire that worshiped the gods so... how is it not any religion could have paganism in it then? =s its very confussing hehe would the term then only add to people who are from a specific religion but dont go to church lets say I just researched some about paganism and it says it has to do with people who sorta dont keep their vows to their own religion.... and sometimes say theyre cristian or whatever but dont follow the things most cristians follow ¿?


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[cerise333]

I guess it would more easily define anyone who is not bound to any specific religion??? and to any specific god.... since most of them come from worshiping many gods n stuff?

[jeRaste]

I would call Abraham the patriarch of Gnosis. The one profound truth of Gnosis is the relationship with God does not require the intercession of religion or others interpreting the relationship of God and the individual. Jesus was not adverse to the orders of Earth components, which is the base of paganism. In my view, based on my studies, He acknowledged the cognizant ability of earth as a separate area, not an area for the priests of Judaism. The natural order of being within the structure of earthly existence has its own set of rules, still under God but considered in a different fashion. Just my take on it. I am a Gnostic, I am not affiliated to any religion, though I see and respect the value each system of faith holds. Gnosticism is simply a view that leaves one in peace and understanding of self within the greater tapestry. I am no more valid nor am I any more invalid than any other component of the greater works. God is in everything, and influences the patterens by subtle ways and overt miracle at times.

One does not need the view of another to see these events, they are perceived infinite ways and all are correct. It is the individual that demands one to see things in one uniform view that is disturbing. Not harmful, just disturbing. How any one being on this level of existence where we are entrenched, can state emphattically that they are correct and any who disagree are wrong; how these can spout such ludicris statements with such surety is an astounding display of the depth of their ignorance. Gnostic view is wide and varied as the individual. It is not a religion, it is a relationship with God. Just as we each approach relationships by our own sense of attraction, compassion, and love. The relationship to God is as personal, as sacred to each heart.

This post... Good stuff.



This THREAD... Good stuff as well. I am out of thanks but yeah, thought provoking and informative thread stars all around.
[stars passing out gold stars]

[Belial]

I have a question does paganism also has to do with worshiping things such as images or objects? wouldnt that make a lot of religions pagan then? I mean yeah... it also refers to people in the Roman empire that worshiped the gods so... how is it not any religion could have paganism in it then? =s its very confussing hehe would the term then only add to people who are from a specific religion but dont go to church lets say I just researched some about paganism and it says it has to do with people who sorta dont keep their vows to their own religion.... and sometimes say theyre cristian or whatever but dont follow the things most cristians follow ¿?

There are a few different definitions of paganism but I think the main two are nature-based religions(or spiritual beliefs and practices), and non-Abrahamic religions.
So the Romans would have been pagan in the sense that they were of a non-Abrahamic religion.
Images and objects can be used in any religion, worshiping images and objects is not directly related to paganism. And usually people of any religion worship the deity the image or object represents, not the object/image itself.

[Stardog Champion]

However if we continue towards this trend of going into complete denial of our human nature--"I'm an alien, I am a dolphin, I am all good bordering on Godhood!" we are going to shift our counciouness again into something or someplace we didn't like just like we did when dualism kicked us in the ass. That great shift that people speak of in coucnioucness may not be what it is cracked up to be....for some of us. We may just introdcue another coach or ego, a super super super ego maybe. Sound fun?

True.

Like religion, the New Age is another crock of mumbo jumbo designed to shift people's focus from what is important: the HERE and NOW. It is yet another weapon in the arsenal used against all of humankind in this war vs. consciousness.

This world in general is a hologram; an illusion. This is nothing new. The Buddha said it about 2,500 yrs. ago. LONG before Jeshua was even born. But he also said that life is not about finding the origins of the disease, but the cure. So, whether we believe our souls to have come from Sirius, the Pleyades, Atlantis, Lemuria or anywhere else, in the present time, we are human flesh and blood. And the problems facing us (greed, corruption, war, the economy, racism, bigotry, etc.) are as real as real can be.

Yearning over whatever one chooses to believe our origins to be. Longing to return "home" is gonna do no fucking good to anyone. All that does is distract the mind from what is really important: unplugging from the Matrix. Plenty of examples in pop culture...

"This one, for a long time I have watched. Always looking to the stars. To the future. Never his mind on where he was! What he was doing! Adventure? Meh! Excitement? Bah! A Jedi craves not those things. The deepest commitment a Jedi most have! The most serious mind!" - Yoda, referring to Luke Skywalker.

Fighting this war vs. consciousness is not a physical thing. It's a pyschological, emotional struggle. In a sense, discussing the potential origins of certain religions, deities, traditions or cultures will help not a bit, to overcome the overwhelming odds facing the warriors in this particular battlefield. It takes guts to recognize, first of all, the real enemy. It takes responsibility to admit that, said enemy is NOT on the outside but within. Don't believe me? Fine. Just tell me, does anyone force you to empower the business machinery that fuels every single damn thing that is wrong with the world today?

We are the consumers. We are the ones that work for others. That put our earnings in banks. We are the ones who like to talk the talk, complain, bitch and moan. But we don't dare make the sacrifices that are demanded from us, if we really wanna be free. We are the ones who aren't willing to give up unnecessary material possessions. We are the ones who say, on one hand, "oh, but I can't quit my job. I can't sell my car. I have bills to pay, kids to feed. And I need to put clothes on my back." While on the other hand, we say "oh, we must fight! We have to break free from the prison where our minds have been enslaved! Fuck the Illuminati, their allies, the NWO." But, in the end is all for naught, if we don't act and do what we must do. No one forces us to come up with fucking lame excuses only to avoid facing the ugly truth that has been staring at us right in the eye: for the time being, if you really wanna fight for your freedom, you must delve deep inside and defeat your own greed; your own fabricated needs. There would come a time when said sacrifices are no longer necessary, if more people grew the backbone to do what is necessary.

In the end, it doesn't even fucking matter where one may think our souls have come from. Because, like it or not, we're Earthlings right now. We belong to planet Earth, Gaia, Tonantzin, w/e you prefer to call her, as much as she belongs to us. Besides, our souls don't come from specific points in time or space. If we go back to the origins, our original life-force comes from the Source of Life itself. Call it God, Creator, the Force, call it what you will. But, that's where we have all come from. Still, we are here right now and, unless we're willing to accept the responsibility, face the REAL enemy (greed and corruption), accept that we've let human nature be raped and tainted, and are willing to endure and pay the steep price that we must pay to be free, we will continue to yield our power to those who profit from it. They are not the enemy. It's not about us vs. them. They just happen to be on top of the food chain right now. Yet, these Elite are as trapped in the Matrix as we are.

Each and every single one of us has his/her own truth; our own path. Because we ARE creators. Our future is not etched in stone. We forge it with every tought, every word and action that we take every single nanosecond of our existence. There are no prophecies other than those we are willing to believe in. There are no aliens, no second comings (be it Quetzalcóatl, who has NOTHING to do with 2012 and the Mayas, btw or, the Christ), no "ascensions" taking place on 21-12-2012, unless that's what one chooses to believe in. Oddly enough, what needs to be done here is: fighting our own Shadow. Not an external battle vs. enemies we have created in our minds. It's facing our own worst feelings, overcoming Ego and seeing past the obvious, to truly free our minds.

[h0bby1]

I have a question does paganism also has to do with worshiping things such as images or objects? wouldnt that make a lot of religions pagan then? I mean yeah... it also refers to people in the Roman empire that worshiped the gods so... how is it not any religion could have paganism in it then? =s its very confussing hehe would the term then only add to people who are from a specific religion but dont go to church lets say I just researched some about paganism and it says it has to do with people who sorta dont keep their vows to their own religion.... and sometimes say theyre cristian or whatever but dont follow the things most cristians follow ¿?

i think it is the roots of any kind of spiritual study, to 'worship' or 'meditate' on images or objects, like budhist does on mandalas and lotuses, there are totems in tribal culture, can be natural objects or sacred animals too, it is the notion a bit of the 'sacred' of what is divine, what you can be inspired by to get some spiritual knowledge about something , in shamannic/pagan i'm not sure they really have the gnosis bit about god/truth/good, but it is the lot of any spritual study to worship/study objects or images =) most of the work of spiritual study in fact is done by worshiping or meditate on a text, an icon a drawing or an object which represent which is supposed to be divine or represent some spiritual entity you want to study =) it can even be sacred geometry like pythagorans schools were doing, or anything that look 'divine' or representing something spiritual you want to be inspired with =) gnostics are a bit different in there approach, i guess the gnosis concept is needed to claim any kind of 'absolute' valdity to the thing you worship, i guess it is the goal of gnostics and also of lot of religious ppl , to tell what they worship is 'the truth' and should be worshiped also by everyone else, where pagan/shaman are maybe more opened to other sources and not totally into the research of absolute illuminating truth =)

[Patryc]

is there a thanx but no thanx button here? I think we should add it hahahaha

just a thanks, they removed the other one, too many trolls misusing it.

[Stardog Champion]

i think it is the roots of any kind of spiritual study, to 'worship' or 'meditate' on images or objects, like budhist does on mandalas and lotuses, there are totems in tribal culture, can be natural objects or sacred animals too, it is the notion a bit of the 'sacred' of what is divine, what you can be inspired by to get some spiritual knowledge about something , in shamannic/pagan i'm not sure they really have the gnosis bit about god/truth/good, but it is the lot of any spritual study to worship/study objects or images =) most of the work of spiritual study in fact is done by worshiping or meditate on a text, an icon a drawing or an object which represent which is supposed to be divine or represent some spiritual entity you want to study =) it can even be sacred geometry like pythagorans schools were doing, or anything that look 'divine' or representing something spiritual you want to be inspired with =) gnostics are a bit different in there approach, i guess the gnosis concept is needed to claim any kind of 'absolute' valdity to the thing you worship, i guess it is the goal of gnostics and also of lot of religious ppl , to tell what they worship is 'the truth' and should be worshiped also by everyone else, where pagan/shaman are maybe more opened to other sources and not totally into the research of absolute illuminating truth =)

Actually, there is a difference between worship and consultation; idols and oracles.

An idol is the representation of a deity, therefore it is worshipped. Whereas an oracle is a device/person that plays the role of intermediary between man and deity. It is to be consulted or enhance the contact between human and the divine. But it's not to be worshipped, anymore than we don't talk to the phone, but thru the phone and to the person at the other side of the cord.

You mentioned Buddhist stuff like the lotus and mandalas. There's also the mantras, of course, which are not objects but words that are to be pronounced repeatedly during certain types of meditation. Some Buddhists even go as far as to create alters, yet none of this is worship, because Buddhists essentialy don't believe in gods.

Christians, on the other hand, do worship idols. Not all, but the majority do. Idols such as the Christ on the Cross, the Sacred Heart, the Holy Ghost, imagery of Virgin Mary, saints, etc. And all of that is derived from pagan imagery and tradition, which is what I believe Cerise was asking. ALL Christian sacred symbols and images are basically, a rip off of ancient pagan symbology, words and traditions in general. And that comes from the time when Constantine named Christianism as the official religion across the entire empire.

Romans were considered pagans before that, just like every other culture that was multi-theistic and had ancient rituals, ceremonies and traditions in honor of their gods. But,in many ways, Roman society was no different from our modern Western world. Rome is even the roots and origins of most of our modern day traditions. Religious freedom was allowed within the Roman Republic and later on, in the Empire, just as it is supposed to be allowed in our day and age. So, most Roman citizens (not all of them from Roman or Italian origins, but some slaves or immigrants who had gained their citizenship via their masters) continued worshipping the gods of their own cultures, instead of the Roman pantheon, which was in turn, based on Greek mythology, of course.

Some foreign religions and cults even went as far as to take deep root with Roman patriarchs (the elite of Rome) themselves. As was the case with the cult of Isis, which was adopted by many Roman high class women. In fact, becoming a priestess to the temple of Isis in Rome itself, was considered as one of the highest honors that could be bestowed on a young Roman woman, only second to being a Vestal. And, the interesting thing here is that ALL Christian images of the young Virgin carrying baby Jesus in her arms, comes from the PAGAN image of Isis, carrying baby Horus in her arms. Another tradition that Christianity or, Catholicism in this case, adopted from Rome, was the day of worship. For Christians of all denominations, the correct day of worship should be Saturday, because of the Hebrew Sabbath. Yet, after its birth, the Roman Catholic Church changed it to Sunday, cuz that was the day when most Romans would worship Apollo, god of the sun.

For all these reasons, most modern day Christian denominations, such as Jehova's Witnesses and Born-again Christians, among others, have shunned the ancient traditions and symbols of the Church, because they feel like said things are all wrong and untrue. They do have a point, but they fail to recognize that most of their practices still derive from pagan and gnostic ancient traditions and they fail to recognize that they don't even worship a god, but a man, since they place more weight on the Christ than his own father. Then again, that's another subject, but in a sense, it could be said that almost all of Christianity these days, comes from pagan and gnostic origins. If not all.

[h0bby1]

Actually, there is a difference between worship and consultation; idols and oracles.

An idol is the representation of a deity, therefore it is worshipped. Whereas an oracle is a device/person that plays the role of intermediary between man and deity. It is to be consulted or enhance the contact between human and the divine. But it's not to be worshipped, anymore than we don't talk to the phone, but thru the phone and to the person at the other side of the cord.

You mentioned Buddhist stuff like the lotus and mandalas. There's also the mantras, of course, which are not objects but words that are to be pronounced repeatedly during certain types of meditation. Some Buddhists even go as far as to create alters, yet none of this is worship, because Buddhists essentialy don't believe in gods.

Christians, on the other hand, do worship idols. Not all, but the majority do. Idols such as the Christ on the Cross, the Sacred Heart, the Holy Ghost, imagery of Virgin Mary, saints, etc. And all of that is derived from pagan imagery and tradition, which is what I believe Cerise was asking. ALL Christian sacred symbols and images are basically, a rip off of ancient pagan symbology, words and traditions in general. And that comes from the time when Constantine named Christianism as the official religion across the entire empire.

well for me there is no fundamental difference between budhist adorating mandalas, and christians adorating their imagery or shaman adorating some painting or a pagan adorating some rocks, on the practicing side, it is just the same for me =) it is the pratice of 'believing' in a spiritual entity, like having faith in its existence , and worshiping symbols of it. to get closer of it mentally, like the gnostic principle, if you meditate thinking to a chair, you will become closer to the chair, and eventually become one with the chair, if you meditate on god, you will come closer to god and eventually become one with god, even if in budhism and taoism it is very eluded, it is more seing mystical experience as something internal,psychological, like no god or spirits exists, there is no physical evidence of them, you can't really perceive them directly with 5 sens, they are only mental creation to represent something, i guess budhist or taoist will see any spirits or god as just 'perception of the third eye' or something like this, and will maybe consider them as being parasite thought or distractions , but there is no big difference between the prayers christian tells from the bible and mantra budhists can use . like crowley said, first on the lips and then it get into the spirit =) technically you can even be pagan and adorating the christ =) even looking at falun dafa stuff which is the most advanced thing from budhist school, there are always connection with christian stuff. devotion is a practice that you find also in pagan or in lot of spiritual things maybe they be religious or not, devotion to a principle, a philosophy etc crowley tell they are only practice to get to a non exitation of the mind , quiteness etc but well hinduist are also using lot of symbolism and divinities which play also a role into the social organisation etc the difference maybe between budists monk and christian priest is that budhist monks are supposed to be able to make a mandala where the christian priest is not supposed to be able to write a bible , but on the practicer/student view, there is not much difference fundamentally =)

the basic of the christian religions is still quite the bible , and for me the bible is some kind of oracle ,something you will refer to to get answers or there can be idols in the strict term of the thing which are not deity, like an influent/charismatic person , having idols is also a way to progress spiritually , it show the direction a bit =) it is not necessarily something negative, even if seeing other post of your, i can understand where you are coming from and why you might make a big difference between "worshiping" and "believing" =) but it is a bit the same with the jew and the kabale , kabalists are a bit like the jew pagans =) but well also it depend if you refer to pagan as the social group as they were defined by the catholic church, like in that case yes pagan are just 'non christian' but they were also something else than just being non christian =) well i born in france in britany and there are traces of paganism like menhirs and celtic stuff, mixed with catholics cathedrals , castle and all kind of reference to magic, it is just all over the place in britany =) and what i can tell is the relation between the catholic church and paganism is really complex, they didn't get everything from pagan, well the real origin of everything is always the same, it is the brain, and all prophets from budist to christian came back after a several year dispartion where they have cut them from society for a long time and came back with their new religion, but i think lot of stuff in the catholic practice were made to cop with already existing pagan cults in a way to make them catholotics with a thing they could also find in they celtic or druidic cultures =) for me a catholic church (the one build by masons in france at least) are really like a 3D stone mandala or something like this , it is just way more evolved than menhirs or anything pagan could come with =)

Romans were considered pagans before that, just like every other culture that was multi-theistic and had ancient rituals, ceremonies and traditions in honor of their gods. But,in many ways, Roman society was no different from our modern Western world. Rome is even the roots and origins of most of our modern day traditions. Religious freedom was allowed within the Roman Republic and later on, in the Empire, just as it is supposed to be allowed in our day and age. So, most Roman citizens (not all of them from Roman or Italian origins, but some slaves or immigrants who had gained their citizenship via their masters) continued worshipping the gods of their own cultures, instead of the Roman pantheon, which was in turn, based on Greek mythology, of course.


Some foreign religions and cults even went as far as to take deep root with Roman patriarchs (the elite of Rome) themselves. As was the case with the cult of Isis, which was adopted by many Roman high class women. In fact, becoming a priestess to the temple of Isis in Rome itself, was considered as one of the highest honors that could be bestowed on a young Roman woman, only second to being a Vestal. And, the interesting thing here is that ALL Christian images of the young Virgin carrying baby Jesus in her arms, comes from the PAGAN image of Isis, carrying baby Horus in her arms. Another tradition that Christianity or, Catholicism in this case, adopted from Rome, was the day of worship. For Christians of all denominations, the correct day of worship should be Saturday, because of the Hebrew Sabbath. Yet, after its birth, the Roman Catholic Church changed it to Sunday, cuz that was the day when most Romans would worship Apollo, god of the sun.

well rome is special, cause there is no roman thinker, roman writer, roman philosopher, roman mathematicians, roman theologists, romans are not known for being spiritually advanced or knowledgable, they have politics and a big army , highway and a structured empire . everything they use from god, religions , circus etc is just entering their power game and really has no value in itself exept as a mass manipulation tool .

but the idea is more interesting in the way greeks saw it, like with their 'polis' / 'cities', and a each city was more or less bound to a god, and the city had a duty over its citizen to 'educate' them, being a citizen of a city was not something as 'flat' as it is now, it was some kind of full engagment to the city rules, and living in a city or another had more meaning than just geographic location, being a citizen was some kind of engagment toward the city and stuff =)

greek high priest or egyptian high priest are a bit the same with tribes who were lead by their shaman, the one with the divine connection who was supposed to guide the tribe , and maybe today they take the form of the big famous artists , like the ppl who are supposed to lead/guide the ppl belonging to the city/polis , today famous artists have a bit the same role and importance than what priest or shamans could have in ancients civilisation.

some of the christian symbolism can also be found in paganism, if you mixup paganism and kabale in a pack compared to christianism and judaism in a second pack you'll indeed probably find lot of common point, but christianism roots is more into hellenistic and jew cultures =) but well most of the important psychic symbol have been found by humans already long time ago and you always fnd them there or there, the virgin having a son is a common myth across several civilisation and is not unique to christian, and lot of the stuff in christianism is not unique to christinism either . but the big concept of monotheistic god, of divine truth, the whole principle of gnosis where you tell that there is truth and lie, it imply that there is a level of truth that can only be found by thinking, a level of truth superior to what we can directly see, the concept that the truth is not aparent directly, you have to 'look for it' , to 'think' to find it, at some point greek thought that numbers and rational thinking (the logos) would be a key to understand it, but everything we see or think is not true/right, our sense/brain can betray us, when you are into this mindset and looking for the truth, you are gnostic =) and it is what leaded to monism, monotheism, the concept of universality, equality, justice etc the way have been opened probably by egyptians , with the the feather and the heart on the scale, to think that there is good a bad ,and supreme way of thinking to see the difference between both, like superior intelligence that ultimatly only gods have, the knowledge to judge humans , to see if you are doing you mission on earth right or not etc =) but i guees modern religion difference with what has been called kabal/paganism is just that they have this dimension of research of the truth, the will of absolutism ,one book for everyone to guide all the humans , not like in greek cities, or shamanistic/tribal things, a thing that can go accross civilisation/cities and other cults and that everyone would agree on =)

For all these reasons, most modern day Christian denominations, such as Jehova's Witnesses and Born-again Christians, among others, have shunned the ancient traditions and symbols of the Church, because they feel like said things are all wrong and untrue. They do have a point, but they fail to recognize that most of their practices still derive from pagan and gnostic ancient traditions and they fail to recognize that they don't even worship a god, but a man, since they place more weight on the Christ than his own father. Then again, that's another subject, but in a sense, it could be said that almost all of Christianity these days, comes from pagan and gnostic origins. If not all.

in fact i've been told that 'christos' is more a denomination like 'yogi' or soemthing like that, and it is not refering to a person in particular, and it is like they says in budism, the darhma is nothing without the yogi and vice versa, the yogi is the darhma, the dharma is the yogi, if you worhip/consult the yogi, you consult the dharma, and if you consult the dharma you are in the way of becoming a yogi =) if you worship christos you worhip the path that he followed which is really unclear in fact, there is no christos school known and it is quite a mystery how he got his knowledge, but he probably followed initiation from various school present there, including jew and hellenistic culture, possibly even eastern culture, but worshiping the christ is also worshiping more than a man =) it is worshiping a way of life, a culture , an initiatic path =)

but well yes , there were ppl thinking about religion and mysticism and the role of man on earth way before christ and even if there is no direct connection between all, they all use their brain to think about the same thing , so of course you always can find correlation between different cults, based on more acient cults, more ancient school of thought , which knowledge evolved throught the centuries and throught different brain , eventually throught jesus brain who made up his religion from there =)

but well after not sure about what you call pagan, for me pagan is more about unorganised non gnostic religion , greeks where not pagan, i think greeks school are what made the difference between orthodox eastern church and catholic church, and their school of thought always been respected like the philosophy and mathematics had been integrated in way other things, well not their god, but the zodiac signs are from greek also i think and they also mix up with other religions etc =)

but well the real origin of the chirstianism is like everything else it comes from the human brain, and who knows what happens in there =) and yes jesus didn't come in a spiritually virgin terrain, and he was very much in the middle of several culture who were already there, not sure they are really to be called pagan cultures, and i don't really think pagans cultures inspired that much directly the catholicism , but catholicism clearly take its roots into things that were already there before the christ =) it probably has origin in initiatic school, like shamans or different kind of spiritualist that were there yet =)

[Stardog Champion]

Good stuff hobby1...really good. I'm not quoting you cuz it was a large read lol! But well worth the time to read it all, dude.

I know where you're coming from, concerning your take on the Buddhist tradition, but I'd just like to point out that the whole idea behind Mandalas, Mantras and such is not adoration/worshipping but actually, using such things as tools that will help you focus deeper on the subject at hand. In fact, orthodox Theravada Buddhism does not promote the use of symbols at all. Cuz, after all, the main idea behind Buddhism is to become nothing...that's what Nirvana/Nibbana is: a state of complete inexistence and nothigness.

There are other Buddhist schools of course, which added elements of their own culture to Buddhism, when it was adopted by such cultures. There's Mahayana Buddhism, which is Tibetan and Zen, of course, which is Japanese Buddhism. But, Theravada, which is still the purest school concerning the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama, is precisely about giving up any and all forms of attachment. And the purest kind of Buddhist meditation, Anapanisatta, focuses on nothing at all. The hardest method too, of course, cuz there's no gadgets, so to speak, to aid your concentration, which has to focus on nothing but your breathing.

Rome and Greece were the craddle of modern Western civilization, of course. And I agree with all that you said, basically. No need to add anything else, really.

Concerning all kinds of Christianity, yes. They do come from the Bible, of course. But, then again the word Bible itself, comes from the greek Biblos, which means "collection of books" and that's literally what the modern day, Christian Bible is. A collection of excerpts from the ancient, sacred Hebrew scriptures (Kabbalah, Torah) making up the Old Testament and the Gospels from the four apostles that comprise the New Testament. In addition to the Book of Revelations, written by some mysterious guy under the name of John...though, not the apostle, based on the times established for the scriptures that make up for that book.

Still, there are many Gnostic Christian or Christian Gnostic sects and groups who have added additional information, such as the scrolls that comprise the Nag Hammadi library in the Cairo Museum in Egypt, to their beliefs. And, the fundamentals of Gnostic Christianism are quite different from Catholic, Protestant, Evangelic, among other Christian denominations. So, as you can see, not all of that information comes from the Bible alone.

To my understanding, it is precisely from such Gnostic Christian beliefs that the theory on the "Chrstos frequency" or "Christic state" comes from. Some refer to it as the "Divine Spark" that we all carry within our true selves and can activate, by leading an "enlightened" life. And that is extremely similar to the Buddhist concept of the "Inner Buddha" in all of us. Like you said: the Bikkhu or monk interacting with the Dharma or Wheel of Law...it's not Yogis in Buddhism, but Bikkhus in Theravada/Zen and Tyzin in Mahayana or Tibetan. Yogis are those who practice and follow Hinduism. Just to clear that up...hehehe...

So, yeah...in a sense, this stuff would be universal and it has very little to do with paganism per se. But it is directly related to Gnosis. Cuz in the end, what the Christos/Divine Spark/Inner Buddha comes to is that, each one of us has his/her own true path lying within our very own selves and that we are our own saviors. Just like Gnosticism suggests.

Know thyself, I guess.

[tmt]

I have a question does paganism also has to do with worshiping things such as images or objects? wouldnt that make a lot of religions pagan then? I mean yeah... it also refers to people in the Roman empire that worshiped the gods so... how is it not any religion could have paganism in it then? =s its very confussing hehe would the term then only add to people who are from a specific religion but dont go to church lets say I just researched some about paganism and it says it has to do with people who sorta dont keep their vows to their own religion.... and sometimes say theyre cristian or whatever but dont follow the things most cristians follow ¿?

Heres a pretty thorough definition:


Paganism
Noun
1. Any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism.

Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.



Date "paganism" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1321. (references)


Synonyms: Paganism
Synonyms: heathenism (n), pagan religion (n). (additional references)

Top

Specialty Definition: Paganism
(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)

Paganism refers to a very broad set of religious beliefs and practices which are characterized by polytheism and less commonly animism. Many pagan religions are based on nature, and these are also called nature-based religions. Paganism predates modern monotheism, although its origins are lost in prehistory. In one well-established sense, paganism is the belief in any non-monotheistic religion, and in this sense it is often used pejoratively by adherents to monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam) for adherents of non-monotheistic religions.
The term is sometimes used by Christians as a pejorative term to indicate a person who doesn't believe in Christianity. "Paganism" is also sometimes used to mean the lack of (an accepted monotheistic) religion, and therefore sometimes means essentially the same as atheism. "Paganism" frequently refers to the religions of classical antiquity, most notably Greek mythology or Roman religion, and can be used neutrally or admiringly by those who refer to those complexes of belief. However, until the rise of Romanticism and the general acceptance of freedom of religion in Western civilization, "paganism" was almost always used disparagingly of someone else's beliefs. It has more recently been used admiringly by those who find the monotheistic religions confining or colourless. Especially since Romanticism, there have been increasing numbers of people who agree with William Wordsworth, that:


. . . . .I'd rather be
A pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn. . . [1]

In another sense, as used by modern practitioners, paganism is a polytheistic, panentheistic or pantheistic often nature-based religious practice. This includes reconstructed religions such as Asatru as well as more recently founded religions such Wicca, and these are normally categorised as "Neopaganism". Although Neopagans often refer to themselves simply as "Pagan", for purposes of clarity this article will focus on the primitive religion, while Neopaganism is discussed in its own article.
This also includes religions such as Forn Sed and Romuva that claim to revive traditional religion rather than reconstruct it, though in general the difference is not absolutely fixed. Practitioners of these tend to object to the term "Neopaganism" for their religion as they consider what they are doing not to be a new thing.

Origins and meanings of the term
The Latin word paganus is an adjective meaning "rural", "rustic" or "of the country" and in the 4th century AD had developed a negative connotation of "rustically unsophisticated" ie "country bumpkin" in line with Classical civilization's high valuation on urban life. In the 5th century as Christianity began to take hold in the cities for example in ancient Gaul the pagani, were as yet untouched by this new religion, and so the negative connotation of the word combined with the religious difference to give the then-new meaning to the word pagan.

Christianity also became a major religion in the Roman army. Here "pagani" has meanings of non-combatant, pacifist, with attendant derision. From the widespread popularity of Christianity among slaves, the most numerous class in the Roman Empire, by contrast "pagani" acquired connotations of "uppity", "dissident" and so on to "heretic."

Certain scholarly fashions from the medieval period onwards, attempted to assert the value of sophisticated Pagans such as Aristotle and Plato and Ovid. This had some influence among upper class educated people but did little to counter a more general prejudice.


http://www.websters-online-dictionar...ation/paganism

[Stardog Champion]

Damn, tmt!

That was a GREAT explanation...it basically covered everything "pagan" from all sides.

Dunno about Cerise, but for my part, thanks a mill for that, my friend...very informational!

[Morningspark]

and i shared

I feel that I should "let you know" that everyone here.. would be considered an expert in a specific field. You are not the only one with a voice. You act as if you are "all knowing", and the only one here who does "know".
I hate to break it to ya, but your type's a dime a dozen- especially on this site.

This forum literally is a meeting of the minds. There are people here more developed than you will ever realize.
The only thing you'll notice is one or two posts from them.

Its funny how those one and two posts can say soo much.

The individuals I am referring to know who they are. - And when I say one or two posts I don't mean douche's who do the . . . thing instead of a post.

Spark-