The Catholic Church

[desire knowledge]

How many of you have heard about all the recent allegations of child molestation within the Catholic Church in Ireland? It was on the news the last few nights and my Aunt asked a really good question.
"Do you think the reason for all the molestation is because of the priests not being allowed to marry?" I told her that yeah it more then likely does have to do with their repressed sexuality, but who knows the other factors. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.


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[desire knowledge]

True...that makes sense. It seems as though people don't want to be "victims" any more. They want to stand up for themselves and be able to move forward. Yet what so many of them fail to realize is that they chose to have this experience...these things were all preplanned to aid within the greater plan of our awakening. So one might conclude that basically w/ all of this coming to light, that the Catholic Church isn't to blame. It's not the human's nor the belief systems....but the fact that it's something being brought to light that a lot of people need to work with and overcome...which would be forgiveness and acceptance. Does it mean we have to consciously "take" this kind of behavior, no of course not, we have to make the conscious choice not to encounter this type of thing again. When you realize something and are able to release the emotions behind any experience you are able to move forward and don't have to repeat the same patterns over again unless you still have not learned the lesson involved.

[Charity]

The issue of celibacy has been controversial. In the early church it wasn't an issue. The main reason celibacy was instituted was because of property. Priests would leave their churches to their sons. However, this was only in Western Europe. It was allowed for all male clergy members below the rank of bishop in the Byzantine Empire.

As for the church suppressing natural things, Jesus did say he was not accepted by this world and we (Christians) would not be accepted in the world.
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Hebrews 11:13)

[desire knowledge]

The issue of celibacy has been controversial. In the early church it wasn't an issue. The main reason celibacy was instituted was because of property. Priests would leave their churches to their sons. However, this was only in Western Europe. It was allowed for all male clergy members below the rank of bishop in the Byzantine Empire.

As for the church suppressing natural things, Jesus did say he was not accepted by this world and we (Christians) would not be accepted in the world.
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (Hebrews 11:13)

True about what Jesus said. Yet most are still under the impression that Yeshua never married. They took it out of the Bible because it didn't seem right that the son of God needed a partner. That was just done to keep us ignorant.

[Charity]

True about what Jesus said. Yet most are still under the impression that Yeshua never married. They took it out of the Bible because it didn't seem right that the son of God needed a partner. That was just done to keep us ignorant.

I have heard this before, but I have never seen any evidence. May I please see your source?
I looked it up on the Tertullian Project and only got references to the church being the spouse of Christ.

Personally, it doesn't make sense for Christ to have spouse besides the Church. He said that in heaven there is neither marriage or status.

[sean keyes]

ya its simple GREED caught them out,,, they were alloyed to marry years ago then the vatican started loosing homes as kids were claiming them after there fathers died so the vatican put a stop to it to save money,,, there going to be cleaned out now so i guess they did not save anything after all,, and along the way destroyed kids

[fmk]

(...)
"Do you think the reason for all the molestation is because of the priests not being allowed to marry?" I told her that yeah it more then likely does have to do with their repressed sexuality, but who knows the other factors. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Hi. Through what you describe in this post of yours and earlier ones i believe your Aunt and yourself to be highly thoughtful profound persons. I was truly unsure if i should step in into this matter as it is the crux not only to the Catholic Church but to all our current world, and as such a most sensitive issue to the every human being, and many would prefer to continue to be-live in IGNORANCE. But, though i won't provide any Scriptural sources as anyone, willing, can research on his own and find them, here it goes...

From the viewpoint of the Judeo-Christian scriptures and tradition, Spiritual death comes primarly from the homo, hetero, auto or poly perverse expressions of human sexuality. (this may help to understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzCA7zCMSX8)

In order to avoid such Spiritually degrading practices, the Catholic church imposed the ideal of Celibacy to their members, similarly to what had been implemented with the aspiring souls of Eastern religions in order to flee temptation, supressing their desires, passions and action.
Yet, the Western individual and society is not as passive as the East was and its development has followed quite different ways: the intention is not to suprress the desires but to dominate them, overcoming lower desires, allowing constructive action to be conducted in the world. To the West, God's plans, as expressed in the Holy Bible, is Generative Purity, that is, each individual is allowed the sexual act, as a sacrament, without passion, that leads to procreation through an Immaculate Conception - for the perpetuation of the human race. Thus, procreation and Chastity, chaste conjugal love during the intervals, within Marriage fulfils this purpose, whether the individual is a layman or a Disciple in Christ.

The penalty for defying God's plans that aim our Spiritual growth -- to become Spiritually ALIVE -- is being very heavy to all mankind in this current world of ours, enslaved by an ultra-materialist ideology...: no mortal can escape it, such is the pain, sickness and sorrow that many even wish to be put to physical death when it comes to them (whether in the current passage or in subsequent rebirth in the physical world). Yet, their suicide, on their own or assisted, will only worsen their misery, as they will quickly find out in first-hand, when trying to cheat on Mother Nature...

REPENT, REFORM and RESTITUTE, that is, the whole individual inner REGENERATION is the solution; whatever one's beliefs or even degree of knowledge may be.

Last, some words of comfort, fit to this situation, that a great western Mystic has once offered unto us (myself included): « Is the life of absolute purity beyond some of us yet? Be not discouraged; Rome was not built in a day. Keep on aspiring though you fail again and again, for the only real failure consists in ceasing to try. So may God strengthen your aspirations to purity. » Max Heindel in Gleanings of a Mystic.

Hope that these brief lines may be found clarifying too.
Peace and Good Will.

[desire knowledge]

HU? This went right over my head

[h0bby1]

yes it always been a bit known that there are lot of pedophila case in catholic church, but i think the reason is specially that it involve some kind of strict authority between priest and childs and it is this kind of situation taht lead to child abuse, cause they can make the child to keep silent and have an authority on him, even spiritual authority in the case of priest, this coupled by indeed the fact that they cannot marry lead to this but pedophilia or child abuse happen very often in place where there are a kind of authority between adult and children, in some catholic church education, priest can have a big role on child, mentally more than a school teacher somewhere, and some just abuse this power they have on them

for about sex and spirituality, i posted this in another thread it might goes here as well so ci copy paste it

alister crowley speak about this, the relation with sex and spirituality, but he include the part about sex into a larger thing well it explain a bit the concept of virtue and what it is good for as being just avoiding mind exitation/loose of control =)

(from this thread http://indigosociety.com/showthread....y-view-on-yoga )

Our best paper will be the system of Buddha (1), but it is so complex that no quick overview would serve, and in other cases, we do not have the stories of the Masters, but those of their immediate disciples.

METHODS RECOMMENDED BY ALL THESE PEOPLE GIVE A striking resemblance. They advocate "virtue" (various types), loneliness, lack of excitement, moderation in food, and finally a practice which some call prayer and other meditation (the first four are just conditions favorable to the latter).

[...]

The mental activity is so intense, and seems so natural, it is difficult to understand how someone had first thought it was a weakness and a nuisance. Perhaps this was because in practice the more natural "devotion," people realized that their thoughts interfered. In any case, calm and self-control should be preferred to restlessness. Darwin to the present study contrasts sharply with the monkey in his cage.

[...]

IT IS WHEN RELEASING THE SPIRIT OF EXTERNAL INFLUENCES, MAY THEY BE CASUAL OR EMOTIONAL THAT ONE BECOMES able to perceive the truth of things.

We shall have little work to do to convince us that all external influences are likely to be inappropriate. New faces, new scenes will disturb us, even the new lifestyle that we contract with the sole purpose of controlling the mind will tend to start to trouble. Already, we must rid ourselves of our tendency to overeat, and follow the natural law requiring that we eat when we are hungry, listening to the voice within us indicating that we are sufficiently satisfied.

[...]

The Hindus have placed these achievements at the forefront of their agenda. These are the "moral qualities" AND THE "GOOD WORKS" DEEMED predisposed to mental calm.

Yama is not to kill, not steal, do not receive gifts, to tell the truth and to be chaste.

In the Buddhist system, Sila, "Virtue" is similarly recommended. These qualities are, for the uninitiated, the following five: Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. You not lie. You shall not commit adultery. You do not get drunk. To the monk, many others are added.

The commandments of Moses are familiar to all, they are roughly similar, and those given by Christ (2) in the "Sermon on the Mount".

Some later theologians have attempted to improve the teaching of the Masters, and gave a sort of mystical importance to these virtues, they have insisted on them as such and are deflected towards puritanism and formalism. Thus, "do not kill," which originally meant "do not get excited to hunt the tiger," was interpreted to imply that it was criminal to drink unfiltered water, and as you kill them animalcules.

[...]

A similar difficulty on the wives was that some teachers have recommended celibacy. In all these matters, common sense should be the guide. No absolute rule can not be fixed. "Do not receive gifts," for example, is more important for a Hindu to be totally upset for weeks if someone offers him a coconut, as the average European who takes things as they come, time to put in his long trousers.

The only difficult question is that of chastity, which is complicated by other considerations, such as that of energy, but everybody's mind is hopelessly muddled on this subject that some confuse with érotologie, and other with sociology. There will be no clear thinking on this issue before Is understood that this is only a branch of athletics.

We can now leave Yama and Niyama by this advice: THAT THE STUDENT HAS DECIDED FOR HIMSELF WHAT STYLE OF LIFE, WHAT MORAL CODE, TO BE THE BEST FOR DRIVING HIS MIND, but once he has chosen holding it there, he will avoid opportunism, and he will be very careful not claiming any credit for what he does or refrains from making - this is purely a code practice worthless by itself.

found this interesting

[desire knowledge]

The sources I use are gnostic texts and more channeled messages...i hold them equal to what's in today's Bible since they are all stories written about the life of Yeshua. You have to understand I look at the scriptures as symbolic of something much deeper then meets the eye. So the various sources I use are meant in a persons own inner experience of what the texts really mean....not just words written on paper to believe literally. -I can't remember which gnostic gospel it was in possibly the secret book of james...not sure atm though. But it was said Mary M was called the Beloved Disciple and that he would kiss her on the mouth. If you read the gospel of Mary he explained to her things he couldn't tell the other disciples for only she was his true equal. Which was why some of the disciples were jealous of her.

[Charity]

I understand symbolic interpretation (though I myself do not believe God would hide the Truth from us). I remember reading the Gospel of John last semester. The term beloved disciple turned up a couple of times, in reference to the titular figure.

[fmk]

HU? This went right over my head

I understand symbolic interpretation (though I myself do not believe God would hide the Truth from us).

Hi. Didn't the Christ, the Son of living God (Matthew 16:16), said: "The Truth shall make you free"? BUT "Truth is not found once and forever. Truth is eternal, and the quest for Truth must also be eternal" (The RCC): on reading Matthew 13:11 and Luke 8:10, one should meditate upon John 16:12.

I remember reading the Gospel of John last semester. The term beloved disciple turned up a couple of times, in reference to the titular figure.

Relevant may also be a reference found at Wikipedia that shows acquaintance too with the Gospel of John: "Another more recent interpretation draws from the Secret Gospel of Mark, existing only in fragments. In this interpretation, two scenes from Secret Mark and one at Mark 14:51-52 feature the same young man or youth who is unnamed but seems closely connected to Jesus. As the account in Secret Mark details a raising from the dead very similar to Jesus' raising of Lazarus in John 11:38-44, the young man is identified as Lazarus ["the widow's Son," who, having been raised from death by the Lion of Judah, took his place among the immortals] and associated with the Beloved Disciple."

Yours, in the Christian pillars of Faith, Hope and Charity.

[Charity]

Hi. Didn't the Christ, the Son of living God (Matthew 16:16), said: "The Truth shall make you free"? BUT "Truth is not found once and forever. Truth is eternal, and the quest for Truth must also be eternal" (The RCC): on reading Matthew 13:11 and Luke 8:10, one should meditate upon John 16:12.

"He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them"(Matthew 13:11), Luke 8:10 is similar.
I think the Truth is an integral part of Christianity, as when Jesus testifies before Pilate he mantains he is speaking the truth. Pilates retort, "What is the truth?" Reflects the cynicism and materialism (politics especially) that dominated the Roman world. It still dominates the world. The truth is not in objects which rust, or fallen man who returns to dust. It stems directly from the Creator and cannot be corrupted.

I've heard things like this being interpreted to mean all believers.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear"(John 16:12)

Because humans have sinned we are fallen. Maybe these things will be revealed after death or the Last Judgement.

[fmk]

(...) Maybe these things will be revealed after death or the Last Judgement.

Hi, in first place thank you for your comment. Well, maybe sooner, my friend. Should one be ready, may all these things in heaven and earth start NOW -- when the glorious Easter Sun at the vernal equinox commences its ascent into higher spheres -- to unveil themselves to the City and to the World...

May the Roses bloom upon Your Cross.

[tmt]

"He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them"(Matthew 13:11), Luke 8:10 is similar.
I think the Truth is an integral part of Christianity, as when Jesus testifies before Pilate he mantains he is speaking the truth. Pilates retort, "What is the truth?" Reflects the cynicism and materialism (politics especially) that dominated the Roman world. It still dominates the world. The truth is not in objects which rust, or fallen man who returns to dust. It stems directly from the Creator and cannot be corrupted.

I've heard things like this being interpreted to mean all believers.

"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear"(John 16:12)

Because humans have sinned we are fallen. Maybe these things will be revealed after death or the Last Judgement.

I have always read the exchange between Pilate and the Christ as a ritual dialogue. The exchange is quite compelling, as are the actions of Pilate with regard to the sign hung upon the cross with Jesus, the exchange with Joseph of Aramethea, and the additional writings that detail these events. The Acts of Pilate, is the name of one of these writings. Pilate is a saint in some of the Christian belief systems.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...s-roberts.html

[fmk]

(...) But it was said Mary M was called the Beloved Disciple and that he would kiss her on the mouth. If you read the gospel of Mary he explained to her things he couldn't tell the other disciples for only she was his true equal. Which was why some of the disciples were jealous of her.

Could this be, from a symbolic viewpoint, a reference to the oral tradition of the Mysterion, the Disciplina Arcani (cf. Esoteric Christianity), the inner Teachings of the Christ that are individually imparted to her, the Soul (of each true and beloved Disciple)?

[desire knowledge]

in reference to the titular figure. HU?

[desire knowledge]

You can say I have very strong ties with this lifetime. I've had a Edger Cayce life report done and my "highest" spiritual lives were upon Atlantis and during the time of Jesus. The historical Yeshua we have lost from record, everything has been altered so drastically that to read anything and say it's 100% true can't be done. We must merely look at everything written as symbolic to turn within and find out why after all these years it was kept as the teachings...and really search within to find the deeper meanings of all of it.

FMK- Lazarus was also mentioned that he went through the same initiations into the deeper mysteries as Yeshua did. It's said that the tomb and being in the cave 3 day's and resurrecting is all symbolic, that really this was an initiation into the higher grades within the mystery schools. Like the re-birthing that we often hear about.

[fmk]

Dear desire knowledge,

We have already been told that the Memory of Nature contains not only ethereal records of lifetimes and events, but that at highest heights there even are records from the earliest dawn of our present manifestation.
In fact, it seems to me that, as we evolve, we unconsciously imitate Mother Nature on this aspect, and others, everytime we develop more accurate tools to create and share among us more permanent records of our own human activity throughout history (eg.: Wikipedia?) and of our own physical lives, even of one's more intimate moments and "secret faults" (Psalm 19:12-13)...

Well, though we may now know, through a worthy messenger, that Lazarus, the Beloved Disciple, subsequently through his symbolic Christic name of C.R. « founded the Order of Temple-Builders [Western Mystery School] which bears his [symbolic] name; ... » (in 'Freemasonry and Catholicism') "to prepare a new phase of the Christian religion to be used during the coming age now at hand, for as the world and man evolve so also must religion change," i believe one should recall what was once told(taught):

"Lord, and what shall this man do?", was then asked. "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.", admonished the Christ.

[desire knowledge]

I've also heard stories that Mary and Lazarus were brother and sister. That's why they were both taught the concept together, and were both initiated into the higher mysteries.