Lucid Dreaming And Psychosis

[AmazonPrincess]

New Links Between Lucid Dreaming And Psychosis Could Revive Dream Therapy In Psychiatry

According to the ScienceDaily staff Information provided by the European Science Foundation have found that Lucid dreaming – when you are aware you are dreaming – is a hybrid state between sleeping and being awake. It creates distinct patterns of electrical activity in the brain that have similarities to the patterns made by psychotic conditions such as schizophrenia. Confirming links between lucid dreaming and psychotic conditions offers potential for new therapeutic routes based on how healthy dreaming differs from the unstable states associated with neurological and psychiatric disorders.

New data affirms the connection by showing that while dreaming lucidly the brain is in a dissociated state, according to Ursula Voss from the University of Frankfurt in Germany. Dissociation involves losing conscious control over mental processes, such as logical thinking or emotional reaction. In some psychiatric conditions this state is also known to occur while people are awake.

“In the field of psychiatry, the interest in patients’ dreams has progressively fallen out of both clinical practice and research. But this new work seems to show that we may be able to make comparisons between lucid dreaming and some psychiatric conditions that involve an abnormal dissociation of consciousness while awake, such as psychosis, depersonalisation and pseudoseizures.” said the workshop’s convenor Silvio Scarone, from the Università degli Studi di Milano in Milan, Italy.

Meanwhile, the previously discredited idea of treating some conditions with dream therapy has attracted interest from clinicians. An example is people suffering from nightmares can sometimes be treated by training them to dream lucidly so they can consciously wake up.

“On the one hand, basic dream researchers could now apply their knowledge to psychiatric patients with the aim of building a useful tool for psychiatry, reviving interest in patients’ dreams,” continues Scarone. “On the other hand, neuroscience investigators could explore how to extend their work to psychiatric conditions, using approaches from sleep research to interpret data from acute psychotic and dissociated states of the brain-mind.”

The existence of such psychotic conditions may be rooted in the evolutionary role of dreams, where dreaming is thought to have emerged to enable early humans to rehearse responses to the many dangerous events they faced in real life. Developed by Antti Revonsuo at University of Turku in Finland, if this threat simulation theory is correct it may have origins even further back in evolution, given that other mammals such as dogs also exhibit the characteristic electrical activity of dreaming.

Researchers also looked at the idea that paranoid delusions and other hallucinatory phenomena occur when the dissociative dreaming state involving replay of threatening situations is carried through into wakefulness.

“Exposure to real threatening events supposedly activates the dream system, so that it produces simulations that are realistic rehearsals of threatening events in terms of perception and behaviour,” said Scarone. “This theory works on the basis that the environment in which the human brain evolved included frequent dangerous events that posed threats to human reproduction. These would have been a serious selection pressure on ancestral human populations and would have fully activated the threat simulation mechanisms.”

However, dreaming is unlikely to have evolved purely to recreate threats. It may also have a role in the learning process, according to Allan Hobson, a psychiatrist and dream researcher recently retired from Harvard University in the US. Contents are added while you are awake and integrated with the automatic program of dream consciousness during sleep. This works with observations that daytime learning is consolidated by night-time sleeping, leading to the phenomenon where people remember facts better the day after they have learnt them than at the time.
http://yourdreaminterpretations.com/...py-psychiatry/

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[Azure Prince]

ahem, but lucid dreaming has increased my control over my emotions and my logical thinking so fuck that shit.

[GhostRaven]

I tend to agree with Azure on this subject.

[Magnus]

ahem, but lucid dreaming has increased my control over my emotions and my logical thinking so fuck that shit.

When I was having lucid dreams, I was doing very well IRL. When they stopped, I increased my meditations and had a psychosis. Not sure if they are tied together, but I think it is good to be lucid in dreams as well as real life. Lucid by definition means to have full sense of your faculties. That is a good thing so ...fuck that article!

Lucid dreaming have been proven to help people solve problems creatively. When you run from an intruder in your dream, you might keep having that dream until you rectify the situation in real life. When you are lucid in a dream, you can ask the intruder who he is and then gain awareness into your real life and the potential dangers you may be encountering. Where did you get that article? It reeks of anti free will propaganda.

[Smile]

When I was having lucid dreams, I was doing very well IRL. When they stopped, I increased my meditations and had a psychosis. Not sure if they are tied together, but I think it is good to be lucid in dreams as well as real life. Lucid by definition means to have full sense of your faculties. That is a good thing so ...fuck that article!

Lucid dreaming have been proven to help people solve problems creatively. When you run from an intruder in your dream, you might keep having that dream until you rectify the situation in real life. When you are lucid in a dream, you can ask the intruder who he is and then gain awareness into your real life and the potential dangers you may be encountering. Where did you get that article? It reeks of anti free will propaganda.

I tend to agree with Azure on this subject.

ahem, but lucid dreaming has increased my control over my emotions and my logical thinking so fuck that shit.

Did any of you really read the article? They were NOT saying lucid dreaming causes psychosis, they were saying studying this sate helps them better understand the mind of schizophrenics and people with pychosis. In other words, someone's brain activity with schizo(during they day) is similar to a normal healthy person's brain activity while sleeping and lucid dreaming. Schizophernic people are in basically living in a dream state, thats the cause of their hullicinations and disasociative feelings. They are not saying that lucid dreaming will cause a normal person to have schizo in waking life! They are just saying they can do sleep research and dream therapy to learn more about the mind of shizos and what not. There is no "propaganda" in here, nor are they discouraging lucid dreaming.

[Magnus]

New data affirms the connection by showing that while dreaming lucidly the brain is in a dissociated state, according to Ursula Voss from the University of Frankfurt in Germany. Dissociation involves losing conscious control over mental processes, such as logical thinking or emotional reaction....previously discredited idea of treating some conditions with dream therapy has attracted interest from clinicians.

Lucid dreaming means that you have full control of your faculties and you use your will to do what you want in the dream. It is completely opposite of what the article describes as lucid dreams. Regular dreams involve losing conscious control over your mental processes and are often illogical or emotionally irrational. It is true that hallucinations and delusions can be interpreted like dreams, but this article does not say this. This method of dream therapy is called psychoanalysis and it's not used by most psychologists because insurances won't cover it, plus Frued's theories on dream analysis and the subconscious mind are being highly criticized these days. It's almost a pseudo science however effective the results of psychoanalysis have on patients in real life.

[Azure Prince]

Did any of you really read the article? They were NOT saying lucid dreaming causes psychosis, they were saying studying this sate helps them better understand the mind of schizophrenics and people with pychosis. In other words, someone's brain activity with schizo(during they day) is similar to a normal healthy person's brain activity while sleeping and lucid dreaming. Schizophernic people are in basically living in a dream state, thats the cause of their hullicinations and disasociative feelings. They are not saying that lucid dreaming will cause a normal person to have schizo in waking life! They are just saying they can do sleep research and dream therapy to learn more about the mind of shizos and what not. There is no "propaganda" in here, nor are they discouraging lucid dreaming.

I didnt say anything close to that. All I commented on was a small piece of the post. Not the whole thing

[Smile]

Ok, I understand what you guys are saying, and now reading it again, I dont like the way the article describes it either, the definition in psychology of dissociation is "the splitting off of a group of mental processes from the main body of consciousness" and I would have to agree that that's what happens in lucid dreams, you do split off from from other process, you not sensing your physical body and at least I am not thinking of my daily life while dreaming, Im pretty much completely in the moment when dreaming or traveling the astral. But I do agree with you guys, if you are fully aware, you can access logical reasoning and have emotional reactions in dreams unlike what the article states. But on the other hand, I'd say that articles definition of dissociation is accurate for low control/awareness lucid dreams which I imagine are the most common for those who dont practice lucid dreaming on a regular basis like ourselves.

"It is true that hallucinations and delusions can be interpreted like dreams, but this article does not say this." Well thats what I got from the article. Basically says that the brain states are similar, which implies that.

[Magnus]

That would transform the way schizophrenics are treated...if they would interpret their delusions like dreams. I hope that happens some day soon.

[sshenry]

Interesting if it could be proved that schizophrenics and others are literally "living their dreams". Would open up whole new discussion on what reality is - and how it is experienced. I think psychoanalysts and medical researchers need to have a sit down with quantum physicists to discuss the concept of collapsing probability waves....

[Evil Ericson]

Confirming links between lucid dreaming and psychotic conditions offers potential for new therapeutic routes based on how healthy dreaming differs from the unstable states associated with neurological and psychiatric disorders.

I could not agree more! I have experienced a few lucid dreams myself and honestly find them disturbing. I do not desire to feel disconnected from Reality. However, I have not had lucid dreams for years now. It comforts me to know my dreaming is healthy, if at all.

[Smile]

Wow, Im stupid, I take back my first post.

"Confirming links between lucid dreaming and psychotic conditions offers potential for new therapeutic routes based on how healthy dreaming differs from the unstable states associated with neurological and psychiatric disorders."

Ulnlike, what I posted earlier, I have to agree with magnus and azure, I misread the first time, I guess they are calling lucid dreaming unhealthy dreaming. At first I thought they were just referring to the unhealthy sates, as in waking normal day of a schizophrenic, but I guess they meant the 2 dream states as they were comparing the psychotic states to "healthy dreaming". Grr, now I dont like this article anymore lol(although its still interesting).

Sorry magnus and azure, I was being a dick in my first post.

[Evil Ericson]

Wow, Im stupid, I take back my first post.

"Confirming links between lucid dreaming and psychotic conditions offers potential for new therapeutic routes based on how healthy dreaming differs from the unstable states associated with neurological and psychiatric disorders."

Ulnlike, what I posted earlier, I have to agree with magnus and azure, I misread the first time, I guess they are calling lucid dreaming unhealthy dreaming. At first I thought they were just referring to the unhealthy sates, as in waking normal day of a schizophrenic, but I guess they meant the 2 dream states as they were comparing the psychotic states to "healthy dreaming". Grr, now I dont like this article anymore lol(although its still interesting).

Sorry magnus and azure, I was being a dick in my first post.

Lucid dreaming IS unhealthy though. I can see why the psychological institution has come up with this. IT MAKES SENSE!
Why is it a that 'spiritual people' must be ABSOLUTELY against ANYTHING CRITICAL of the mind and its functions *(providing those releases regard things these 'spiritual people' consider 'special' about their mental functioning)* released by the trusted psychological industry? I think it is ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous!

I am 'spiritual', but not 'out of this world'. That is, I know my REALITY and tend to keep both feet firmly planted on the EARTH. You know, people.... THE EARTH? That seemingly invisible little planet we all inhabit and take for granted? Yes, THAT ONE! Honestly, 'spiritual people' have floated so far beyond their human bodies that they forget the VALUE of the manifest dimension.

To me, 'spirit' is nothing more than the motivating force behind our behaviors and actions additional to 'mind'.

Example: "She had the SPIRIT of the team in that she tried her best to kick a goal as hard as a Badger should."

THAT to me is 'spirit'. Not the 'animating factor of life', but 'that which motivates human desire and the manifest will". This is different from 'Will' with a capital 'W' - 'the directing factor of the being'.

[Magnus]

@evil ericson Do you know what lucid dreaming is? It's having awareness in your dream and being able to control the dreamscape and think coherently. Regular dreams are like dissociated states. It's been proven in many studies that lucid dreaming can allow you to solve problems creatively in real life. In regular dreams, you are just a viewer or puppet with no control. Didn't you ever have recurring nightmares that only ended once you became lucid in the dream and figured out what you were running from? Then in real life you learn who to react in certain situations and cease to be victimized by the situation.

[Smile]

Lucid dreaming IS unhealthy though. I can see why the psychological institution has come up with this. IT MAKES SENSE!
Why is it a that 'spiritual people' must be ABSOLUTELY against ANYTHING CRITICAL of the mind and its functions *(providing those releases regard things these 'spiritual people' consider 'special' about their mental functioning)* released by the trusted psychological industry? I think it is ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous!

I am 'spiritual', but not 'out of this world'. That is, I know my REALITY and tend to keep both feet firmly planted on the EARTH. You know, people.... THE EARTH? That seemingly invisible little planet we all inhabit and take for granted? Yes, THAT ONE! Honestly, 'spiritual people' have floated so far beyond their human bodies that they forget the VALUE of the manifest dimension.

To me, 'spirit' is nothing more than the motivating force behind our behaviors and actions additional to 'mind'.

Example: "She had the SPIRIT of the team in that she tried her best to kick a goal as hard as a Badger should."

THAT to me is 'spirit'. Not the 'animating factor of life', but 'that which motivates human desire and the manifest will". This is different from 'Will' with a capital 'W' - 'the directing factor of the being'.

I dont take earth for granted, nor do I take for granted the hours I am sleeping. I look forward to sleeping/lucid dreaming/astral projection, the same way I look forward to waking up in the morning(or any other part of my day for that matter). There is no reason to call lucid dreaming unhealthy, this article did not show that lucid dreaming causes psychosis, they just stated the brain states in a sleeping person are similar to a waking schizophrenic - the implication that lucid dream states are unhealthy was just a subjective piece thrown into the article, an opinion. I am critical of misleading crap like that, because they may lead an uninformed reader astray to think lucid dreaming is unhealthy, when in reality it certainly is not(nor is there any reason to think it is) and is in fact very common. Mastering lucid dreaming is an excellent life skill and a joy, not to be taken for granted.

BTW -There are many definitions of spirit, the definition which is "yours" (although it is a perfectly good one), is not usually the one people think of when someone says they're spiritual(there is not as a wide variety of definitions for "spiritual" as there is for "spirit"), motivated/motivation word be a more accurate word for what your referring to as "spiritual". BUT, I dont see how any of this pertains to the discussion of lucid dreaming, and I especially don't see how that could be an argument against it. I first started studying lucid dreaming and astral projection years ago because I was motivated to LIVE and experience the 1/3 of our lives we spend sleeping instead of just drifting through that time.

[Verumi]

Lucid dreaming IS unhealthy though. I can see why the psychological institution has come up with this. IT MAKES SENSE!
Why is it a that 'spiritual people' must be ABSOLUTELY against ANYTHING CRITICAL of the mind and its functions *(providing those releases regard things these 'spiritual people' consider 'special' about their mental functioning)* released by the trusted psychological industry? I think it is ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous!

I am 'spiritual', but not 'out of this world'. That is, I know my REALITY and tend to keep both feet firmly planted on the EARTH. You know, people.... THE EARTH? That seemingly invisible little planet we all inhabit and take for granted? Yes, THAT ONE! Honestly, 'spiritual people' have floated so far beyond their human bodies that they forget the VALUE of the manifest dimension.

To me, 'spirit' is nothing more than the motivating force behind our behaviors and actions additional to 'mind'.

Example: "She had the SPIRIT of the team in that she tried her best to kick a goal as hard as a Badger should."

THAT to me is 'spirit'. Not the 'animating factor of life', but 'that which motivates human desire and the manifest will". This is different from 'Will' with a capital 'W' - 'the directing factor of the being'.

How is lucid dreaming unhealthy?

You do realize that the DSM was put together by a group of psychiatrists who were funded by pharmaceutical companies, right? This would lead me to believe that the bible of mental illness is biased towards labeling people as ill and in need of drug-therapy.

Dreams allow people to process information in a way that they are unable to in waking life. Lucid dreaming is realizing that you are dreaming, and you can either wake yourself up or control the dream.

I think you are referring to delusions, which in my opinion, are no more unhealthier than the delusion of "God", "Heaven", "Patriotism", or "Rights". So long as the person isn't harming themself or anyone else, they have the right to believe in whatever they want to.

[Evil Ericson]

Please do not quote the conspiracy junkies, Verumi.

The psychiatry and psychology industries label based on what they know to be a disorder and what they know not to be one VIA THEIR MEDICAL TRAINING. That is, they go by societal 'norms'. [B](If it seems atypical of an average man or woman, it is probably a disorder). I do not blame them for this view, honestly. They cannot (without proper evidence) 'clear' someone who expresses a disassociated or atypical thought pattern. It is when it gets dangerous to the victim or other citizens that it becomes an issue in need of resolving (Treatment).

Did you know that someone even tried to label me as psychotic or with some mental disorder or another just because I happen to think government taxation workers deserve Xmas cards?! (THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO!)!

Anyways, consider it.

[Verumi]

Please do not quote the conspiracy junkies, Verumi.

The psychiatry and psychology industries label based on what they know to be a disorder and what they know not to be one VIA THEIR MEDICAL TRAINING. That is, they go by societal 'norms'. [B](If it seems atypical of an average man or woman, it is probably a disorder). I do not blame them for this view, honestly. They cannot (without proper evidence) 'clear' someone who expresses a disassociated or atypical thought pattern. It is when it gets dangerous to the victim or other citizens that it becomes an issue in need of resolving (Treatment).

Did you know that someone even tried to label me as psychotic or with some mental disorder or another just because I happen to think government taxation workers deserve Xmas cards?! (THEY ARE PEOPLE TOO!)!

Anyways, consider it.

By your standards, it is healthy to promote murder in other countries in the name of freedom because it is patriotic and it is what most ignorant people believe; but it is a mental disorder to feel connected to nature, because that is describing a minority of people in this culture. Think about it and try not to hurt your precious little brain.

I know it is hard to let go of all those years of bombardment of what is considered normal by your parents, your teachers, your friends, etc. but I assure you, it is possible to think and feel things on your own, without comparing it to anyone else. You'll be okay.

And by the way, medical training in the U.S. is merely the memorization of what is in text books, and then practicing on manequins. If you don't flunk, you get a degree. If you don't kill too many people, you get to keep practicing.

In reality, people learn from experience. A text book is merely the work of someone else. If you decide to ever read the disclaimer on medication that is prescribed for mental illness, you'll see that it is based on a theory. A theory. I'm sure you know what a theory is. You might even have some of your own when you aren't busy explaining other people's theories.

[Evil Ericson]

By your standards, it is healthy to promote murder in other countries in the name of freedom because it is patriotic and it is what most ignorant people believe; but it is a mental disorder to feel connected to nature, because that is describing a minority of people in this culture. Think about it and try not to hurt your precious little brain.

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I do not believe in freedom.
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I know it is hard to let go of all those years of bombardment of what is considered normal by your parents, your teachers, your friends, etc.

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My parents are ANTI government, teachers were never an issue and I do not keep friends.
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but I assure you, it is possible to think and feel things on your own, without comparing it to anyone else. You'll be okay.

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Explain this in detail.
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And by the way, medical training in the U.S. is merely the memorization of what is in text books, and then practicing on manequins. If you don't flunk, you get a degree. If you don't kill too many people, you get to keep practicing.

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Is that not how you learn?
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In reality, people learn from experience. A text book is merely the work of someone else. If you decide to ever read the disclaimer on medication that is prescribed for mental illness, you'll see that it is based on a theory. A theory. I'm sure you know what a theory is. You might even have some of your own when you aren't busy explaining other people's theories.

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Theories are not based fully on fact. I use great care in supplying them.

[Verumi]

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I do not believe in freedom.
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Freedom is your ability to do as you choose. You have the freedom to believe in anything you want to believe in. You have the freedom to eat what you want, go where you want, do what you want. Laws and rights are man-made and should not be confused with freedom.

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My parents are ANTI government, teachers were never an issue and I do not keep friends.
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Then you are the exception to the rule. Are your parents religious, by chance?

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Explain this in detail.
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Observe something. It can be anything. A ball rolling down a hill. The sun rising. The wind swirling leaves in circles. How your parents interact with one another. Anything at all. Examine the thoughts and feelings that come to you. If what you think or feel is derived from a book, then you are not experiencing and learning from your life. If your thoughts and feelings come from the mere act of observation, then they are your thoughts and feelings.

A child is not born knowing all the details of how to act, what to desire, etc. It comes to earth knowing only one thing: survive. It learns from observation.


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Is that not how you learn?
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No. I learn from observation. A book may offer some good theories and I might explore these theories. I learn from interacting with others, asking questions, experimenting, and observing nature and my reactions to my observations.

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Theories are not based fully on fact. I use great care in supplying them.

Of course theories are not based on fact, which is my point. You cannot say that mental illness as agreed upon by some individuals who wrote a book is fact. It is only an agreed upon idea by those individuals and then it is taught to people in school, who later use those theories to apply to their patients, regardless of whether or not it is factual and whether or not they are harming the patients by doing so.

New psychologists and doctors are the worst, because they have had their own philosophies torn apart by professors and they do everything by the book.