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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidee View Post
    hybrid..as in half angel half human? Un natural
    Knowledge given at the right time.................baby food for babies, table food for adults?
    Ah, so now angels are unnatural.

    “What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if,when you awoke,you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?”
    ― Samuel Taylor Coleridge


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    demand request saME THING..one simple order......everything else they were given.. whats so hard about that? Having respect for your father,...whats so hard to understand....are we not supposed to love and respect our parents?
    And about Cain,....of course i dont have any proof,...its odvious. He was the first murderer.
    They didnt ask God about the tree,....Satan came to Eve...they were fine until Satan came into the picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sshenry View Post
    Ah, so now angels are unnatural.
    i didnt say that....haha where did i say that?????..i said half human half angel....un natural

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    ..

    its not that difficult to see...i guess most people find it cruel that our short years here on Earth right now, is a game of chess.
    But i see the bigger picture, it wont always be like this...brains were given to us for a reason,...to live long enough open those doors,...
    Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died. [Genesis 5:27] Back then people were closer to perfection...they lived longer than we do now..it will be again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidee View Post
    No he didnt set them up to fail,...he gave us FREE WILL ...look at the account of his faithful servant Job....Job lost everything, stricken with sickness, while Satan brought tribulations on him...God rewarded Job , i believe 10 fold because remained faithful.
    Either God knows what's going to happen or he doesn't it is illogical to say he does as is taught in christianity and then say he didn't set adam/eve up to fail as by setting the test he knew they would fail. the only other way to look at this is that God didn't know they would fail which by definition of the bible that teaches this to start with is impossible as God is all knowing.

    With Job as an all knowing God he already knew that Job would not fail the test.

    Job who was loyal and never did anything wrong in Gods eyes he still allowed to suffer WTF and this is a loving God
    Your only purpose is to Know

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidee View Post
    No he didnt set them up to fail,...he gave us FREE WILL ...look at the account of his faithful servant Job....Job lost everything, stricken with sickness, while Satan brought tribulations on him...God rewarded Job , i believe 10 fold because remained faithful.
    He gave us free wil, to punish us when we choose what he didnt want us to choose? doesnt make sense.

    I also hate people pointing at the Job verse, absoluty turns my stomach to the point of sick.


    See there was once a very loyal christian lady, who had cancer,
    she believed she was like Job, getting a test, and as long as she stayed strong in her faith, God would help her heal,
    and she would pass the test.
    She healed, and sighed with relief because she has passed.
    Then years later, she gotten ill with cancer again. She sighed, and wondered why God tested her twice,
    but stayed strong in her faith, and healed.

    Then years later, she was diagnosed with incurable lung cancer.
    She was heartbroken that her God after all those loyal years and those tests she passed,
    chose this faith for her.
    But in her last year of life, she was also grateful to God, because he gave her daughter the gift of pregnancy,
    and thus her the gift of having one more grandchild before she had to leave this earth.

    But, this grandchild died just hours before he was born.
    5 months later, on her deathbed in the hospital, this woman's faith was finally broken, by the Father that gave her all these tests.
    And while she let go of life, the last minutes, her family saw not peace and faith,
    but fear and insecurity in the eyes of their mother.

    That woman, was my mother, that daughter losing the one gift she could give to her mother, that child, was me.
    I saw the fear in my mothers eyes, the insecurity that there might not be a loving god waiting for her,
    because in her eyes she had passed all those tests only to be punished.

    This is why to this day, when someone quotes Job, I feel like I am being choked and get physically sick.

    A loving Father does not test His children again and again and again, only to reward them with more pain then they can endure.
    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

    'A man is but the product of his thoughts, what he thinks, he becomes'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum View Post
    Either God knows what's going to happen or he doesn't it is illogical to say he does as is taught in christianity and then say he didn't set adam/eve up to fail as by setting the test he knew they would fail. the only other way to look at this is that God didn't know they would fail which by definition of the bible that teaches this to start with is impossible as God is all knowing.

    With Job as an all knowing God he already knew that Job would not fail the test.

    Job who was loyal and never did anything wrong in Gods eyes he still allowed to suffer WTF and this is a loving God
    if you look at it that way then yes,.......Job was rewarded for his faith, and will return again...death and suffering of a few short years doesnt compare to everlasting life
    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  8. #28
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    well, not everyone see things the same,...it doesnt mean we cant make a good thread of discussion, and play nice...i can. i gave some of my input, and everyone can do the same, but i dont wish to argue either.
    We're discussing thats all. Everyone has right to believe whatever they want to believe, i have never condemned anyone for their beliefs and im not about to start, i would never mock anyone out of spite,....its not my place, we're all the same on that level...
    we'll see the turn out one day,...who knows maybe we're all wrong about everything....lol

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidee View Post
    demand request saME THING..one simple order......everything else they were given.. whats so hard about that? Having respect for your father,...whats so hard to understand....are we not supposed to love and respect our parents?
    And about Cain,....of course i dont have any proof,...its odvious. He was the first murderer.
    They didnt ask God about the tree,....Satan came to Eve...they were fine until Satan came into the picture.

    No, demand and request are NOT the same thing.

    Request: An act of asking politely or formally for something.
    Demand: An insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right

    One simple order - yes, it was an order. Not a request, for there was nothing polite about it.

    Love and respect - yes. In that you honor your parents requests, and respect the love and consideration that they have shown you. But respect does not equal blind obedience. Especially if the parent is asking you to do something that does not sit right with your own heart.

    I'm afraid cain's being the son of satan is NOT obvious, at least not unless you are trying to make a very specific point.

    Did you know that the satan that we know of - as being evil - didn't actually make an appearance until the Jewish exile in Babylon? Before then they didn't believe in hell. Souls of the dead simply went to "rest." There was no satan and no angels. No biblical books written before that timeframe contain any reference to Satan. Both Chronicles were written AFTER the exile, as was the book of Job. These were added in into cannon in the order that they were supposed to have happened - not in the order in which they were written.

    But that's beside the point.

    It's still not a loving god.

    “What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if,when you awoke,you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?”
    ― Samuel Taylor Coleridge


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abigail View Post
    He gave us free wil, to punish us when we choose what he didnt want us to choose? doesnt make sense.

    I also hate people pointing at the Job verse, absoluty turns my stomach to the point of sick.


    See there was once a very loyal christian lady, who had cancer,
    she believed she was like Job, getting a test, and as long as she stayed strong in her faith, God would help her heal,
    and she would pass the test.
    She healed, and sighed with relief because she has passed.
    Then years later, she gotten ill with cancer again. She sighed, and wondered why God tested her twice,
    but stayed strong in her faith, and healed.

    Then years later, she was diagnosed with incurable lung cancer.
    She was heartbroken that her God after all those loyal years and those tests she passed,
    chose this faith for her.
    But in her last year of life, she was also grateful to God, because he gave her daughter the gift of pregnancy,
    and thus her the gift of having one more grandchild before she had to leave this earth.

    But, this grandchild died just hours before he was born.
    5 months later, on her deathbed in the hospital, this woman's faith was finally broken, by the Father that gave her all these tests.
    And while she let go of life, the last minutes, her family saw not peace and faith,
    but fear and insecurity in the eyes of their mother.

    That woman, was my mother, that daughter losing the one gift she could give to her mother, that child, was me.
    I saw the fear in my mothers eyes, the insecurity that there might not be a loving god waiting for her,
    because in her eyes she had passed all those tests only to be punished.

    This is why to this day, when someone quotes Job, I feel like I am being choked and get physically sick.

    A loving Father does not test His children again and again and again, only to reward them with more pain then they can endure.
    This made me cry I too have a mother who is or at least was one of the strongest born again Christians I know yet I now have to watch her suffering with dementia.
    Your only purpose is to Know

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sshenry View Post
    No, demand and request are NOT the same thing.

    Request: An act of asking politely or formally for something.
    Demand: An insistent and peremptory request, made as if by right

    One simple order - yes, it was an order. Not a request, for there was nothing polite about it.

    Love and respect - yes. In that you honor your parents requests, and respect the love and consideration that they have shown you. But respect does not equal blind obedience. Especially if the parent is asking you to do something that does not sit right with your own heart.

    I'm afraid cain's being the son of satan is NOT obvious, at least not unless you are trying to make a very specific point.

    Did you know that the satan that we know of - as being evil - didn't actually make an appearance until the Jewish exile in Babylon? Before then they didn't believe in hell. Souls of the dead simply went to "rest." There was no satan and no angels. No biblical books written before that timeframe contain any reference to Satan. Both Chronicles were written AFTER the exile, as was the book of Job. These were added in into cannon in the order that they were supposed to have happened - not in the order in which they were written.

    But that's beside the point.

    It's still not a loving god.
    like i said,...you are you i am me,...we can discuss civilized,...no mocking no fighting, no ridiculing, just discussion for thought provoking info,..i sense a bit of hostility, and i have no desire to quarrel over opinions...its all good. i appreciate everything i hear, read, and learn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum View Post
    This made me cry I too have a mother who is or at least was one of the strongest born again Christians I know yet I now have to watch her suffering with dementia.
    I am sorry, I didnt mean to make you cry, and I am sorry to hear about your mother, hugs from me.

    The thing is, tied in with the op, I think a lot of what is in the bible was edited in with the only purpose of controlling the masses.
    If people are so afraid of heaven and hell and Satan, and hear over and over that as long as they hold on to their faith it will all be ok,
    they will fear to thread off the beaten path, they will fear thinking for themselves,
    that alone completely contradicts the 'loving Father' picture.

    I am not saying the Christian God does not excists, but his holy book was used for so many unholy purposes it now causes so much pain, condemnation,
    fear, false justification.
    Which is by all standards, things a Christian will say only Satan would cause.

    People should be able to life, love, believe and walk with joy, not in fear.
    This whole 'rulebook' has been abused so many times it can imo no longer be called holy.

    A loving parent, is there to catch you when you fall, is there with open arms when you make the wrong decision and get hurt.
    A loving parent does not condemn.
    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

    'A man is but the product of his thoughts, what he thinks, he becomes'

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Abigail For This Useful Post:

    andrew01 (02-23-2012), Lelitu (05-15-2012), Rum (02-23-2012), sshenry (02-23-2012)

  14. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogidee View Post
    like i said,...you are you i am me,...we can discuss civilized,...no mocking no fighting, no ridiculing, just discussion for thought provoking info,..i sense a bit of hostility, and i have no desire to quarrel over opinions...its all good. i appreciate everything i hear, read, and learn
    I didn't mean to sound hostile. But information that has no basis on fact (or at least accepted tradition such as biblical reference) has never sat well with me from the time I pointed out discrepancies in quoted scripture to my Sabbath school teachers.

    16 years of parochial school and another 3 of seminary tend to do that to a person.

    I'm afraid I'm one of those people who, the more she studied into the details, the more room there was for doubt.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions, I did not mean to be disparaging of your personal beliefs, if it came across that way, I'm sorry. I was simply trying to point out the discrepancies in the biblical account itself.

    “What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if,when you awoke,you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?”
    ― Samuel Taylor Coleridge


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    here is an article here ( http://www.campaigner-unbound.0catch..._testament.htm ), that explain that the story of the eden could just have been a reference to a sort of migration they would have to do following a decision they took or some geopolitical matter, and that the whole genesis could just be account of when they had to leave from some place garden of eden, kindgom of god, a sort of atlantis, and it is known that the bible contain some historical data more or less in the form of myth, and it is possible that the genesis would be just such a thing, a myth from an emmigration

    but even if you consider the eden as the kindgom of god in the heaven and all, god has created the apple, and created it in a way that can be eaten by adam, and if it is a test, it mean that god didn't knew the result, and that he is not omnicient, if he was omniscient, it mean that he would have known that adam would have ate the apple, but i think there could be a sort of metaphor about knowledge, saying that it is good to know that knowledge is there and exist, in order to want to learn, but not to 'consume it', like if teaching in general should be limited to only a certain special form of teaching like from what gnosticism come from, about learnng about the inner, about learning how to learn, knowing that knowledge exists, but never make it a 'static thing' and destorying the eternal curiosity, the movie tron the heritage the end it was i think linked to this too, and i tend to see biblic message in lot of movies now lol maybe because some realisators are jew too or christians lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sshenry View Post
    I didn't mean to sound hostile. But information that has no basis on fact (or at least accepted tradition such as biblical reference) has never sat well with me from the time I pointed out discrepancies in quoted scripture to my Sabbath school teachers.

    16 years of parochial school and another 3 of seminary tend to do that to a person.

    I'm afraid I'm one of those people who, the more she studied into the details, the more room there was for doubt.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinions, I did not mean to be disparaging of your personal beliefs, if it came across that way, I'm sorry. I was simply trying to point out the discrepancies in the biblical account itself.
    i have same amount of years you have, 17 in fact ,...of hard study of all bibles and religions, i wont speak unless im confident...but that STILL doesnt make me anymore accurate than you..vice versa. Discussion is a good thing.
    Thank you for clearing that up by the way, im cool.....im always happy...never bitter...i know you're a nice person too..
    Last edited by yogidee; 02-23-2012 at 12:20 PM.

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    Hesiod's argument against Prometheus was twofold: first, the simple claim -- as object lesson -- that Zeus had horribly punished Prometheus for his hubris in the theft of fire; and second -- the parallel with Genesis -- that Prometheus's deed, the giving of the capacity for skilled labor to man, was responsible for what Hesiod viewed as the current wretched condition of mankind. In an account substantially identical to the biblical story of man's origin in the idyllic "Garden of Eden," Hesiod claimed that the first men had lived in a blissful age of "gold," that this had degenerated to a slightly less blissful "age of silver," but that as a result of Prometheus's deed, the men of his day were forced to live in an age of "iron," characterized by the need to perform labor as the condition for survival. "For the gods," he claimed,


    His close relation to Hesiod is sufficient to establish the author of the Genesis "Fall" story as standing squarely on the side of those ancients opposed to the Phoenician-originated movement of trade and progress in the early Iron Age, and it is the "Fall" story that establishes the monotonous schema of sin and divine punishment that runs through the earlier books of the Old Testament.



    Samuel 13:19 reports:
    Now there was no smith to be found throughout all the land of Israel; for the Philistines said, "Lest the Hebrews make themselves swords or spears"; but every one of the Israelites went down to the Philistines to sharpen his plowshare, his mattock, his axe, or his sickle.



    Of this Hiram, it is recorded by both Greek historians and the Bible that he was a great builder and innovator. The Greek source reports that:
    He erected the Eurychoron (a broad plaza in Tyre between the city and the temple of the Chief Phoenician god, Baal Samin -- PA) and set up the gold pillar in the temple of Zeus (Baal Samin -- PA). Having gone for timber, he cut cedar wood from the mountains called the Lebanon for the temples of the sacred rites, and he tore down ancient temples and built new ones, both the temple of Herakles and the temple of Astarte, and he was the first to make the awakening of Herakles in the month of Peritios. He sent an expedition against the Uticans (the location and exact name of the city referred to are unknown" PA) who had refused to pay their tribute, and having subjected them once again to himself, restored it. He had with him a young boy Abdemunos, who always used to solve the problems which Solomon, the king of the Jerusalemites, used to propound to him. (25)
    The Old Testament relates that Hiram was the contractor who built the celebrated temple of Solomon in Jerusalem -- the "first" temple destroyed in 586 BC by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon -- supplying both timber and skilled craftsmen for the task. (26) The Old Testament also reports that Hiram engaged in joint trading ventures with Solomon, supplying crews for trading ships of Solomon's which sailed from the Israelite port of Ezion-geber on the Gulf of Aqaba. (27)


    Solomon's accomplishments in urbanizing his kingdom and building up its wealth and trade, and in erecting the very temple of Yahweh in Jerusalem, are overridden, in the Old Testament's evaluation of his reign, by his sins of taking foreign wives (polygamy, of course, is sanctioned by the Old Testament) and of permitting the worship of cults other than that of Yahweh. "For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites," I Kings 11:5 pronounces. "Solomon did what was evil in the sight of Yahweh, and did not wholly follow Yahweh."



    The Adam story is contained in what is commonly termed the J story of the creation. (47) The parallel which links the Adam story with Jehu -- in addition to the general hatred of progress and intellectuality identified above -- is the bedouin-oriented opposition to agriculture common to both the Adam story and the Rechabite sect. In the Adam myth, this opposition emerges in the "punishment" meted out by Yahweh Adam and Eve after he discovers that the pair have acquired knowledge: Mankind is "condemned" to practice agriculture, which one might otherwise regard as an important advance over the fruit-gathering existence depicted in the Garden of Eden. In the words of Genesis:
    And to Adam he (Yahweh -- PA) said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return. (48)
    Proceeding to chapter 4 of Genesis, still within the J stratum, we learn that Cain murdered his brother Abel from pique over the fact that, Abel being a "keeper of sheep" and Cain a "tiller of the ground," Yahweh preferred Abel's sacrifices -- offerings of meat -- to Cain's offerings of grain, for which Yahweh "had no regard." Cain's punishment for murdering his brother is still another curse on the land: "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength; you shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth." (49)
    In the realm of social science, the early Pentateuchal source places the origins of civilization in Babylonia (the "land of Shinar" of Genesis 11), and may have included the puzzling reference to Abraham's origins in "Ur of the Chaldeans" -- also in Babylonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum View Post
    Have you ever wondered why God would be angry at Adam for eating the apple.

    How many of you parents out there don't want your children to learn.

    I can understand a parent getting angry about disobedience however what has always puzzled me is why you would forbid the knowledge to your child to start with.

    It also seems that God grew angry at the nephalim also for teaching man knowledge. the bible also seems to forbid gaining knowledge from mystical sources.

    It begs the question what exactly is it we are not supposed to know and why ?

    I head this story alone when I was a kid without sunday school brainwashing, and I did not read it that way AT ALL. It was not about knowledge vs ignorance. it was not about obedience vs rebellion.

    The tree was called "knowledge of Good and Evil" 'to know' was also a euphamism to impregnate, sleep with, * around with..... Think of the yin yan -- the Great Pole that creates duality and divides what shoudl be a loving unity. Think Duality. The Fruit that caused Death was the fruit taht brought DUALITY. Where there was once a lush garden, now the plants are DIVIDED into CROPS and WEEDS when Adam tills the ground. Now there is the HEAD and the HEEL to be in battle. and Adam and Eve seeing they are different, and learn of a concept called NAKED (which God had no issue with) and they were the ones to first run from God and do the hding because now they had SHAME, HIGHER, LOWER.... all those wicked concepts. It shoudl be note that God actually PROTECTED CAIN after he killed Abel.
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    knowledge is sacred. God given knowledge to Adam so that He is not slave of anyone. That's Jesus talking. We must understand how we are controlled by knowledge. And furthermore how knowledge make us free, and how we can enslave people.
    To me, finality of knowledge dialectics is the following:
    We must not conquiete power: we must destroy it !
    That's why we must respect law and love it. No one can fool the law, that's why world will be free by obeying to the law, light will be done on earth by following and applying them.
    This human conditions exist because knowledge has not been respected, and have enslaved people.
    Secret societies and it's demonic followers use knowledge.
    all life and existence is trying to understand how to respect, follow and thankfull to knowledge.

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    little knowledge is a dangerous thing.


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    The story of the fall has dualistic meaning, like EVERYTIHNG else.

    I'll give two crude examples, one is the story of how a lower fallen bein tempted us to become egotistical, physical beings when we were once in a perfected, pure, all knowing state of spirituality (like boundless soul). It's not even a bad thing, it's just us being seduced into a more physical experience.

    Then, there is the other- which is actually the story of Jehovah/Enil- who didn't want us to be free. But forgetful little slaves. Didn't want us to have knowledge, so when Enki offered it to us, Enlil was furious and cast us out of his little area in Sumeria that he was in charge of at the time.

    Another is also- that the tree of good and evil is duality. So we began to experience Duality, instead of ONENESS which is God.

    Religion has of course, taken it to such a different angle. And is now this literal story of a snake and some dude who didn't like us after we ate his fruit...

    The whole story was later twisted to keep powerful knowledge out of the commoners hand.

    The RomanCatholicChristians weren't the only ones to do this, it has happened throughout time immemorial.
    Last edited by AmentiHall; 05-15-2012 at 11:56 AM.

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