well we actually got out of the cave, and at that time ppl were deying at 30 if not before, and was no really paradise, if it was paradise, there would be no need for improvement felt and we would still there ^^Originally Posted by AmonRa
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Lol, you're sounding a but like Magnus now
and by very definition, realism = idealism
evil is just absence of rational idealism
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other:
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.
Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no-talking.
The ten thousand things rise and fall without cease,
Creating, yet not.
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.
Therefore having and not having arise together.
specially meditate on this one
non blissfull ignorance lead to knowledge
you just defined out of the cave by saying we live longer. But who ever said living longer was any measurement of evolution and happiness? People lived only up to 30-40 under the Roman Empire, but look at how much they've done.
Sure, we fight diseases better, but look at the incredibly insane number of Wars we've been having these last decades (including those the media don't give a fuck about)
We're nowhere near out of the cave. Now sure, the middleages sucked, and the few thousand years before JC were probably not great for everyone, but cavemen's prime bummer was probably toothache. And in those times, being a selfish dickhead meant being banned and dying alone in the wild.
Seriously, people get shot everyday, kids get molested, cash is made out of war weapon business and addictive drugs...
How much more paradise do you see compared with Cromagnon clans?
We live longer, but are we happier? No. We have science, but so what? The price of Hubble could feed countries for years... is that wisdom?
What was the worst thing that could happen to you 35.000 years ago? Getting raped... getting eaten by something with teeth... starving... dying of cold... dying of a simple cold for lack of medication.... dying young...
Which one of these are not present today except the getting eaten part? More people probably die killed for their wallet or hit by a car than cavemen die eaten by wolves and mountain lions.
I also don't get how realism = idealism... realism is a limitating way of thinking that cuts out every possibility that your mind cannot foresee, based on past experiences and the idea that you've seen it all and unicorns ain't real because you've never seen one. Idealism is an expanding way of thinking based on nothing concrete but inner feelings that make you think or believe that something is possible even though nothing logical, nor past data points toward that possibilty.
sounds opposite to me lol
Edit: improvement. You said there wouldn't be any if we didn't need it. Really? Most modern technologies come either from lucky accidents, or military research. Lots of chemicals come from pesticides research.
Do we need bigger TVs? no. Do we need faster computers? No. Wanting and needing are not the same.
Also don't forget many things we think we need today, are being engineered to make us believe we need them. Medicine is a special case, imo since living longer should of course be something desirable, but I'm pretty sure, to the point of betting one of my balls, that most famous doctors in History were uber curious dudes who cared more about how things worked than about saving peasants...
Last edited by AmonRa; 03-16-2012 at 07:43 AM.
what you express here is just the need for improvement of the moment, as well as ppl had other need for improvement in cave man time
wars and child molestation, infant death, and many bad things were also happening in paleolitic time, lack of stability, predators, diseases, which is why ppl had to invent fire, silex, and that whole kind of things, and then something else and something else, and we still need more knowledge in some area today
we really need a chatroom in here LOL man, I swear I go take a leak, and by the time I come back there's 15 new posts all over the site lol
http://indigosociety.com/showthread....-vs-Empiricism maybe check this article out
that's rather not true, modern technologies are no accident, chance come to the one who seek it or something like this, and most modern advance still been made by ppl who worked their whole life on studying things, not really based on accident, they were still schollar searching something, it didn't pop out like this like in the movie back in the future with the doc who hit his head on the toilet to invent the doleran lol and even doc , he was still into science and research before he hit his head on the toilet lol
and yes we need biggers tv and faster computers and faster cars lol otherwise they wouldn't be here, or some ppl need to make other believe we need it which is still a need somewhere, but we also need clean air and clean water, and other need are also there that need to be taken in account, and lot of doctor actually were living close to the street, like pasteur, his first rage vaccine was delivered to a poor child who was bit by a street dog, and of course they care about healing peasant, this is the hypocrates medicine, healing anyone, no matter who no matter what, no matter where he comes from, that's pretty much the basic
like the way einstein developed relativity, it is not based on perception of the space time curvature, he knew the result before the experiement was done, same with in greek time how they manage to measure accuratly the circumferance of earth without seing it, using abstract concept of geometry, not based on sense experience, empiricism as realism based on the sense was what lead ppl to believe the sun run around the earth, and that kind of things, experience from the snese is not always what give the more 'realism'
mathematics are purely abstract as well as geomtry, they don't come from percuetual data, they come from abstraction and imagination, and it is still what is the back bone of physic discovery, more than empiricism or accident
and for everything that touch spirituality as mental heath in socratic sense, it can very hardly be told to come from the sense =)
Last edited by h0bby1; 03-16-2012 at 07:58 AM.
oh really, i thought that i'm more like to you...we're virgin right?Lol, you're sounding a but like Magnus now
But for all the advances that we've made - for all the "improvements" that we've made to our lives - where is the wisdom?
Scientists may have spent their entire lives working to grow super foods that are hardier that generate more food per square inch (or pound or whtever), but I don't see the anyone using that technology to see to it that everyone around the world is fed. No, the advances go to line the pockets of the uber wealthy corporations that copyrighted the research.
Scientists may have spent their entire lives studing genetic structures and isolating the gene that causes a particular disease resulting in procedures or medicines that cure otherwise uncurable illnesses, but I don't see anyone using that technology to cure those who have the disease - well, unless they can afford the treatments.
It happens because those who sponsor the research don't give a dingo's kidney about actually helping anyone with their research. What they want is another way to see an increase in their quarterly profits.
Today's scientists can't afford to do independent research - they have to get sponsorship - and those who sponsor the research get full rights to using that research, and inevitably the end result is for profit.
Oh there's plenty of knowledge all right. But the wisdom is definitely lacking.
Until we can heal the gap that occured during the age of "enlightenment" when alturism and compassion was thrown out with the bathwater of religious beliefs and superstition in order to pave the way for the greed of technological advancement and corporate greed I doubt very much that true wisdom will ever get as much as a toehold.
“What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if,when you awoke,you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?”
― Samuel Taylor Coleridge
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yes but that is because this science is only a part of what the true processus leading to science is about, it is what is generally called 'natural science' from aristotle, or newtonian science which are mainly fraud in the original sense of rationalism that has lead to science, what is this version of rationalism is the version of the light century and is not the same than the original intent of science
the same procesuss that has lead to valid knowledge about genetic or other is the same procesuss that has to be used to solve the issue that you point out for feeding the world or can be applied to any kind of problematic
it is the processus of rational thinking that has to be used to form idea and knowledge that render one able to have a realistic vision of the world, that render one able to act consciously over something that is seen as to be changed or impacted in a way or another
most ppl who call themselve scientist today they are not even truly scientists, in the higher sense of the term
Last edited by h0bby1; 03-16-2012 at 08:18 AM.
As I said - there is a gap - and a big one.
We may have advancement...progress if you want to call it that... but only superficial until it is used to the benefit of all mankind.
The advances mean absolutely nothing if they are only used for self gain and profit.
“What if you slept? And what if, in your sleep, you went to heaven and there plucked a strange and beautiful flower? And what if,when you awoke,you had the flower in your hand? Ah, what then?”
― Samuel Taylor Coleridge
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@H0b >> I gotta go to bed (can't seem to sleep enough this week, between the GF and the morning earthquakes) but to keep the thread going, lol, I'd bet you my ass that the Doctors who contributed to improving medicine where the guys in the lab, cutting open dogs and cadavers. The street doctors were wonderful human beings but probably died young, miserable and family-less. Just like people who invented great things did it out of personal curiosity rather than out of desire to improve society (imo)
and I stand by what I said about a lot of modern technology we take for granted were found by accident or luck.
A big bunch of medications and chemicals too. We've never really gathered scientists to save the world, except in movies and soviet russia. Even today, scientists and academics work hard for fame, pride and their own name on the memorial board. If the need to improve fueled science, we'd have mega laboratories with millions of scientists gathered from the whole planet, financed by leading countries. Instead we have Microsoft scouting geniuses to make flat screens in Silicon Valley.
gnight guys and gals
altruism it is cute and all, but if you don't have anti biotics, you won't be able to efficiently prevent a person to die from pneumonia
today yes, since science became american and capitalistic, you know not so long ago, polyethnics were the one to go in the mine to save the day where a channel was to collapse, even at the risk to die in there, the first doctor made their progress at the very risk of their life under the catholics, like ambroise pare, and this whole thing of cutting dogs is actualy directly expressivly forbiden by hypocrates medicine
it is written explciity in the hypocrates oath that they must not use knife or stuff like this
oringally, the scientist elite such as polytechnics or such were really to be seen as elite of the nation to solve problem for the rest of ppl, and they are still much need in many areas, and still improve greatly quality of life on every level
actually majority of doctors or great scientic were really disinterested and didn't die that much rich, or didn't do it specially for fame, partially by curiosity, partially also to improve society, to find solution for problems that are encountered in daily life
i know many doctors even today who have very hard life, working day and night in gettho places at the expanse of their familly life and all, and it is still a very broad pattern in lot of doctors, it is really petty to say they all do this for fame and monney that's really not true
that would be way more true for traders or goldman sax ppl than for scientist or doctors or ppl who do science research
Last edited by h0bby1; 03-16-2012 at 08:34 AM.
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