An Apology For Ego

[cyberwraith]

What comes to mind when reading the word “ego?” What associations or preconceptions arise? For me, I think one that comes to mind is “selfish,” as in “selfish desires” or self preservation. It often seems that the ego is dealt with, spoken of, and treated with contempt – as if it were an enemy to be vanquished, a foe to be overcome and cast aside. It seems that we frequently see the ego as a stumbling block on our path to a more enlightened and spiritual state. We must “wake up” and “shake off” the hold that ego keeps so tightly on our souls and minds and hearts.

Perhaps first we should examine ego. How do we know what we are working to overcome without first realizing what it is? From the Latin, ego literally means “I.” According to a psychological interpretation, the ego is “the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and unconscious and is responsible for the interpretation of reality and the development of a sense of self.” Both definitions revolve around the sense of self, or I, which exists as our conscious identity. Without ego, there is no “me” to write this, and no “you” to read it. Without ego, I cannot relate to you on a personal level because there is no distinction between us. In essence, if I attempt to cut myself off from my ego, I am cutting myself off from myself.

Now, there are some who would claim that this is merely a trick of the ego in its own struggling effort to preserve itself. I ask you, though, who is making the argument? And who is listening to it? If there is no ego, there can be no “I” in “I Am.”
The mistake seems to be in a presupposition that this is a black and white world. We accept the argument that we are complete as either ego OR Spirit. That, for one to exist, we must deny the other. At other times, we accept that we are BOTH, without really asking ourselves what it means to BE both. At those times, we mistake one for the other. We make claims such as “I AM GOD,” accepting the identification on an egoic level. While it is true that the Divine is a part of each and every one of us, the Divine is that part that exists within us beyond the ego. If the ego is the part that we define as self or our “I” then the Divine exists in an eternal moment beyond that sense of self.

Again, we may find ourselves tempted to make the argument that it is our ego, then, which keeps us apart from the Divine. However, if we look at countless spiritual texts and creation stories (whether you consider such stories myths or divine revelations), we see again and again that Man (ego) is the pinnacle of creation. If we accept that Man is the only creature on the Earth capable of self-awareness, then self-awareness can also be seen as the pinnacle of the evolutionary process (so far). If this is true, then self-awareness is a blessing, not a curse. It is a gift that we have been given, and to deny it is to refuse the very gift that we have been given. To carry disdain for the ego is to carry contempt for the very part of us that provides our self-awareness. Anyone who hates his/her own ego must necessarily hate him/herself.

If we accept the fact that the ego is a part of us, then where do we go from there? Perhaps the next step is to embrace both ego AND spirit, rather than attempting to eliminate one or the other. To open a dialogue between the two disparate parts of our entire being. To accept that we are not one OR the other, but both/and. This could also be the meaning behind statements such as Jesus saying that “I and the Father are One.” The meaning of communion – the body being flesh (ego) and the blood being spirit. The meaning of the alchemical marriage (heiros gamos).

[Calibas]

I have a bit different view of things. See the wars on the planet, see the constant desire for more more more and the general unhappiness with what people already have? See the people living lives of quiet desperation and working jobs they hate? Something's obviously not working correctly in our ego-run society.

I see humans as Divine and the core "I Am" is the connection to this Divinity. The "I Am" is what observes the mind, and the ego is a part of the mind. You can observe your own ego in action.

I see the ego as an illusion of self created by the mind. Everyone has a connection to the All within themselves, but they don't see this because they think the ego is who they are. And so they search for themselves outside of themselves and wonder why Life doesn't quite work out the way they feel it should.

Will

[cyberwraith]

Parts of what you say do not necessarily disagree with what I have said.

For one thing, I think we both agree that there is *more* than the ego. And I think that what you are saying also agrees with the argument that we seem to forget that there is more. Science (and some philosophers) have contended that Spirit does not exist because we cannot see or measure it. Spirit-ual groups and people have often seemed to claim that the ego is bad and is what has gotten us into the mess we are in. Personally, I think both are only seeing the glass as half full.

I think, in response to your argument about the problems of humanity, that I would ask WHOSE ego is running things. My ego desires an END to war, an end to poverty, an end to hunger. I think you are saying that you would desire the same. (What sane person wouldn't, right?)

Not sure if you are familiar with Martin Buber, although your argument in part derives from a premise he put forth in a book he called "I and Thou." Every Thing is an object -- everything that can be measured, everything that can be acted upon or with which you can interact. I think we could agree that the ego is an object. However, saying that does not make the ego less useful or real. A table is real (in a usable sense), and is very useful for keeping our food off the floor (for instance).

In a sense, everything could be considered an illusion -- time, tables (a collection of atoms that is actually more space than substance?), and self. However, they are all useful and meaningful in a sense, too. In a sense, perhaps, the ego is not as much an illusion as the sense that we are separate(d) from the divine.

There is, though, a very real sense in which you and I are separate. Even though we are both divinity at our core, and connected in that sense, we both have different ideas and different ways of seeing the world. We are able to learn from each other. In a very real sense, I cannot learn from myself. There may be things that I know, and wisdom that I have... however, life's lessons and the wisdom gained come through interactions with other objects.

I am able to grow. I am able to invent. I am able to learn. I contend that if spirit is eternal and infinite, then it is unable to grow or learn. Infinity leaves no room for growth. It has also been claimed that where there is no growth, there is no life.

People wonder why Life doesn't work out the way they feel it should not because of ego, but because they have expectations. If they are attached to a particular outcome, then they are disappointed if things don't work out that way. If we learn to have preferences rather than attachments, then we can prefer a particular outcome and not have the pain and disappointment if things happen differently.

[cyberwraith]

It is easier to move a mountain than to discuss matters of logic with a fundamentalist.


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[Cicero]

ahh cyberwraith, a soul after my own heart.


The act of creation and ultimately growth, begins with the separation and fragmentation into opposites. Thus, the oneness becomes many. Take that analogy I saw on another thread: We are to god as a wave is to ocean (something like that). If there were no waves, there would be no movement and the ocean would be unobservable.

In order to grow, the ego is necessary. As individuals we have different experiences, different circumstances and a myriad other conditions that affect perception, and still, further awareness. waves come in different sizes and intensities influenced by seen and unseen factors. The ego to me, means "separate", nothing sinister, nor even self preserving, simply a separate incarnation of a whole idea (God)-- a different point of seeing and experience resulting in growth that benefits the entire whole.

[cyberwraith]

This whole thing came out of my reading from a couple of different books lately. It's been building and I just had to say something. The interesting point that comes out of this is that I'm not entirely sure that I completely agree with what either of the books are saying, which comes back to your point Cicero.

While I don't completely agree with the authors, it is always good to have different points of view. Sometimes I might change my mind about issues I thought I had completely understood because something new or different comes to light. I don't view other points of view as a threat, so much as a learning experience.

I think, for instance, that while it seems that Will and I might disagree that he presents his point quite respectfully (and much love and appreciation to you for that, Will).

I like the ocean/waves metaphor.

[{{d*@*b}}]

The act of denying, fighting, elliminating, exorsise, etc...the ego is in fact giving the ego more focus, because it is not going anywhere. In other words, you become egocentric by fighting to remove the ego. In reality your ego gets free reign if you do not conciously counteract it. Does this make any sense? It does to me. Peace

[sshenry]

What if you reach a point where you can simply let go - and detach yourself from the outcome?

[cyberwraith]

{{d*@*b}},

How does meditation work into this? Would you consider that "consciously counteracting" the ego? It seems to me, to some degree, that you are talking about what Jung called "the shadow."

sshenry,

Maybe I'm reading what you wrote incorrectly. The first time that I read your post, I read it as "What if you reach a point where you CAN'T simply let go," and then I re-read it.

Either way, can you give an example, if you have one in mind?

As far as NOT being able to let go, the first thing that came to mind for me is the thought of a mother watching a child struggling with an illness. When my youngest sister was 5 she had cancer -- what they call "Wilms tumor." She was sick, and my parents were very grieved. They kept asking what they had done, and trying to find a way to understand and accept it. They were both Christian and both believed in Heaven, although they really did not want to see her suffer or die.

It seems like there are times when it IS VERY difficult to "simply let go" but I do believe there are lessons to be learned even in difficult situations (maybe ESPECIALLY then). It is very difficult (unless someone isn't entirely sane) to experience someone else's suffering, and even more difficult to experience the reality that, ultimately, the reality is that you are powerless to do anything about it.

Sometimes it seems that the knowledge that we ARE powerless to do certain things serves to bring a sort of peace of mind that we seldom experience otherwise. Very often it is the very act of holding on to the idea that we CAN do something that brings suffering. (And just saying this, I look at my own life and all the pain and suffering that I went through surrounding my divorce, and the idea that I must have done something to cause it to happen and must just not have seen a way to "fix" it. That went on for quite a while.)

Still, I don't know if it is the *ego* that is the source of the suffering.

I was watching the movie "Trust the Man" last night. It stars David Duchovny and Julianne Moore. Anyway, I was just thinking about all the stories and all the lives -- how people can sometimes be so SCREWED UP... and make so many mistakes, cause each other and themselves so much pain, and how beautiful it can be at the same time... There is so much beauty and so much potential in humanity, and it seems to me that people often miss all the beauty and the art and poetry and magick in life because we focus so much on the negative -- the wars, the hunger, the dis-ease, the mistakes... It seems to me that there are such things as "beautiful mistakes" -- those painful moments in life that we come through and survive and learn and grow and share... and how life is beautiful even at the worst of times. Sometimes pain can be beautiful simply because we all experience it and share that experience. It might be part of the human condition, but we ARE ALL HUMAN, so we're all in the same boat.

We love, we lose, we hurt, we cry, we feel... and ultimately we die. Still, it is an experience we all share, and it binds us in ways to every other living thing. I think the precious thing about the ego is that we can REALIZE it.

[sshenry]

sshenry,

Maybe I'm reading what you wrote incorrectly. The first time that I read your post, I read it as "What if you reach a point where you CAN'T simply let go," and then I re-read it.

Either way, can you give an example, if you have one in mind?

Okay, I am going to use an experience that just happened to me recently. I was immersed in a very nasty case of business politics here at my job. A mistake that I made (and I admit that I made it - it was a relatively simple error that could have been corrected quickly and quietly if my attention had been drawn to it, but instead it made its way up the food chain and the mistake was missed by THREE levels of supervisors after I had submitted it.

Of course when push comes to shove each supervisor passed the buck back down a level until it came back to me, low man on the totem pole, and by this point it had escalated into a major issue involving the highest levels in our department and even a congressman. I was called in on the carpet and there was talk of removing me from my position.

Amazingly enough, I found that I was relatively detached from the outcome of the whole scenario. I sat there, listening to them discuss my future, and was amused by the whole scene! They finally asked me if I had anything to say for myself - and normally I would have jumped all over an opening like that, explaining how it could have been corrected if it had been brought to my attention earlier etc. I would have justified my actions, documented my decisions etc. But instead I simply found myself shrugging, and saying yes, I had made the mistake and that I was sorry it had turned into such a mess.

It crossed my mind to worry about how I'd pay my my bills if they laid me off, but at the same time I wasn't worried, not really.

This is just an example. This has been happening more and more lately. I find myself stepping back from the outcome of issues instead of getting emotionally wrapped up in what is going on.

[Skywalker]

What comes to mind when reading the word “ego?” What associations or preconceptions arise? For me, I think one that comes to mind is “selfish,” as in “selfish desires” or self preservation. It often seems that the ego is dealt with, spoken of, and treated with contempt – as if it were an enemy to be vanquished, a foe to be overcome and cast aside. It seems that we frequently see the ego as a stumbling block on our path to a more enlightened and spiritual state. We must “wake up” and “shake off” the hold that ego keeps so tightly on our souls and minds and hearts.

Perhaps first we should examine ego. How do we know what we are working to overcome without first realizing what it is? From the Latin, ego literally means “I.” According to a psychological interpretation, the ego is “the part of the mind that mediates between the conscious and unconscious and is responsible for the interpretation of reality and the development of a sense of self.” Both definitions revolve around the sense of self, or I, which exists as our conscious identity. Without ego, there is no “me” to write this, and no “you” to read it. Without ego, I cannot relate to you on a personal level because there is no distinction between us. In essence, if I attempt to cut myself off from my ego, I am cutting myself off from myself.

Now, there are some who would claim that this is merely a trick of the ego in its own struggling effort to preserve itself. I ask you, though, who is making the argument? And who is listening to it? If there is no ego, there can be no “I” in “I Am.”
The mistake seems to be in a presupposition that this is a black and white world. We accept the argument that we are complete as either ego OR Spirit. That, for one to exist, we must deny the other. At other times, we accept that we are BOTH, without really asking ourselves what it means to BE both. At those times, we mistake one for the other. We make claims such as “I AM GOD,” accepting the identification on an egoic level. While it is true that the Divine is a part of each and every one of us, the Divine is that part that exists within us beyond the ego. If the ego is the part that we define as self or our “I” then the Divine exists in an eternal moment beyond that sense of self.

Again, we may find ourselves tempted to make the argument that it is our ego, then, which keeps us apart from the Divine. However, if we look at countless spiritual texts and creation stories (whether you consider such stories myths or divine revelations), we see again and again that Man (ego) is the pinnacle of creation. If we accept that Man is the only creature on the Earth capable of self-awareness, then self-awareness can also be seen as the pinnacle of the evolutionary process (so far). If this is true, then self-awareness is a blessing, not a curse. It is a gift that we have been given, and to deny it is to refuse the very gift that we have been given. To carry disdain for the ego is to carry contempt for the very part of us that provides our self-awareness. Anyone who hates his/her own ego must necessarily hate him/herself.

If we accept the fact that the ego is a part of us, then where do we go from there? Perhaps the next step is to embrace both ego AND spirit, rather than attempting to eliminate one or the other. To open a dialogue between the two disparate parts of our entire being. To accept that we are not one OR the other, but both/and. This could also be the meaning behind statements such as Jesus saying that “I and the Father are One.” The meaning of communion – the body being flesh (ego) and the blood being spirit. The meaning of the alchemical marriage (heiros gamos).

I was just thinking about ego and BOOM...I see your post...weird

[sshenry]

No such thing as coincidence

[Skywalker]

yep yep

[cindy_doney]

EGO = GOD CONTAINED IN FLESH. how confusing to be once allknowing and then restricted as a man. loves xxxxxx

[cindy_doney]

hey sshenry, that is so cool. your reaction to that situation. i love experimenting with those types of situation. i play different roles and take notes on the outcomes. verrrry interesting. and ive done that one. yup, its the best one for your health to say the very least. and dont worry about the bills...... the path goes where it should. hugs and loves xxxxxx

[cindy_doney]

dunno what yoll think of this....the bigger the ego - the bigger the lesson to be extracted. xxx

[cyberwraith]

You know, I agree that ego is limited and has rules.
I agree that God is unlimited.

I don't think Cindy is stopping at "ego = God."
From what she says, it seems more like "ego = Man = God in Flesh."

It is an interesting take, although I do not believe the individual ends with the flesh.

I do have questions, though, about the idea that ego is the REASON for separation. If ego is the reason for the separation, then ego would be unable to realize it is separate. If ego is unable to realize that it is separate, there would be no longing for anything outside of itself. If Man is ego, then Man would believe Himself complete in Himself.

If Man is Divine or God, and God is complete and is NOT separate, then how is Man separate? One or the other must be false. If the separation is false, then ego cannot be the reason for separation because separation does not exist.

[cindy_doney]

cool, i like this, helps me to organise my thoughts. how about this...... it is thru refining the ego that we will harness the god within ourselves. does that make sense to you. imagine a world where the ego exists but its managed correctly. its a necessity as a human but its a key in getting in touch with the god within you. by controlling it as a race, we would be able to communicate without ever losing tempers or feeling inadequate or being defensive. i have been giving it much thought since miamisounds thread. and i have been practising it. and its a reality. we cant lose the ego, its one of our fleshy functions, but we can refine it. and in doing so we can replace the negative aspects with positive ones. ego is a collection of emotions. i believe it is the cause of emotions. so work on allowing only the positive to flow from your ego. it leads to love and humility and peace without allowing yourself to be a doormat. still working on it so i will let you know in a couple hundred years when i have perfected it. :-) xxxxxxxx

[WingedDefender]

yes Lia, you are one to speak, oh mother god...

Snikerz*

hehhehehhehehe

CJ-
If there is one thing i hate more than jokesters, it hypocrytes ,but i am the biggest one of them all- JFK

[cyberwraith]

Okay, I am going to use an experience that just happened to me recently. I was immersed in a very nasty case of business politics here at my job. A mistake that I made (and I admit that I made it - it was a relatively simple error that could have been corrected quickly and quietly if my attention had been drawn to it, but instead it made its way up the food chain and the mistake was missed by THREE levels of supervisors after I had submitted it.

Of course when push comes to shove each supervisor passed the buck back down a level until it came back to me, low man on the totem pole, and by this point it had escalated into a major issue involving the highest levels in our department and even a congressman. I was called in on the carpet and there was talk of removing me from my position.

Amazingly enough, I found that I was relatively detached from the outcome of the whole scenario. I sat there, listening to them discuss my future, and was amused by the whole scene! They finally asked me if I had anything to say for myself - and normally I would have jumped all over an opening like that, explaining how it could have been corrected if it had been brought to my attention earlier etc. I would have justified my actions, documented my decisions etc. But instead I simply found myself shrugging, and saying yes, I had made the mistake and that I was sorry it had turned into such a mess.

It crossed my mind to worry about how I'd pay my my bills if they laid me off, but at the same time I wasn't worried, not really.

This is just an example. This has been happening more and more lately. I find myself stepping back from the outcome of issues instead of getting emotionally wrapped up in what is going on.

See, this is at least one of the things meditation is SUPPOSED to do! (In part I'm being silly... or trying to be...)

Still, the main focus of meditation has been to gain the perspective to make exactly these sorts of realizations / decisions. I'm really glad that it sounds like so many things are clicking for you!!

*hugs*