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About Vegetarianism?

#1
I've been wondering for some time... I am not a vegetarian myself, and if anyone tells me I should be, I would consider it. The only reason I'd go vegetarian is because of all the energy and water used for 'growing', slaughtering and transporting animal meat. It's a huge waste of power and resources, I know, and animals shouldn't live to be killed by us like that.
But is the reason most people are vegetarian because they believe animals should not at all be killed and consumed by humans? This is where I get confused. Animals eat other animals as their only food source, so why wouldn't humans? I would actually like someone to explain to me why they are vegetarian, and if they think humans should have the right to consume animal meat. I am not being critical at all. I'm just questioning because I'm not sure why people do it.
So, if you (a vegetarian) got the chance to consume meat that was not processed/from farms, and the animal was hunted (like how tribal cultures do it), would you? Because I think if people worship the animals they kill and eat (as in respect it, have it on mostly special occasions, and thank the gods, etc), why would it still be wrong to some people?

#2
Hi Natasha, I've loved meat all my life. But since awakening 8 weeks ago, I set out to cleanse my body. I started with a full detox of no alcohol, caffeine, sugar, chocolate, crisps, fatty foods etc... I did this for a month and loved it, I then after researching more decided to try to be vegan. I've been doing this now for a month and feel amazing! I have more energy than ever and have lost over 2 st :)

However this was never because I didn't want animals to die for me to eat. If its like you said, hunted then killed I guess that's ok. Circle of life. I don't believe anything should be bread to be killed. There is a theory tho that if all humans stopped eating meat, the rest of the worlds animal consciousness would stop too.

My advice is try it and see how you feel, it may not be for you. I try to be as strict as I can but it is hard when eating out etc.....happy eating :)

#3
Natasha wrote:I've been wondering for some time... I am not a vegetarian myself, and if anyone tells me I should be, I would consider it. The only reason I'd go vegetarian is because of all the energy and water used for 'growing', slaughtering and transporting animal meat. It's a huge waste of power and resources, I know, and animals shouldn't live to be killed by us like that.
But is the reason most people are vegetarian because they believe animals should not at all be killed and consumed by humans? This is where I get confused. Animals eat other animals as their only food source, so why wouldn't humans? I would actually like someone to explain to me why they are vegetarian, and if they think humans should have the right to consume animal meat. I am not being critical at all. I'm just questioning because I'm not sure why people do it.
So, if you (a vegetarian) got the chance to consume meat that was not processed/from farms, and the animal was hunted (like how tribal cultures do it), would you? Because I think if people worship the animals they kill and eat (as in respect it, have it on mostly special occasions, and thank the gods, etc), why would it still be wrong to some people?
Hi Natasha

I was an avid meat eater, until a short while ago where I began to become emotionally affected by the food I was eating. I am not saying it was the animals per se, but definitely the purer the quality the food, and the purer the intent the better I feel. There is a big difference.

#5
For a site that advocates universal oneness you are looking at the picture on too small a scale yes how tribes lived in the past was the proper way they hunted their food and used every part of the animal for something or another so that nothing was wasted and breeding animals for food is in poor taste and extremely wasteful but here is also something to think about plants are alive too and we are killing them for their energy just because it is more pure than what you get from animals it is deemed ok but in the end something is always dying its the inescapable circle of life..so in general what is the point of being a vegetarian why should it be more fair to kill one and not the other because plants have no consciousness if that is what you think you would be undoubtedly mistaken. just food for thought :)

#6
Realize cattle do not destroy the land, it's farming that strips the topsoil of nutrients. If the systems were corrected for cattle raising, all cattle would be grass-fed on all the land which would replace all grains and crops and they would then be taken to a farm to slaughter. Many go vegetarian when they see the videos of the treatment of food animals in Only a few of the slaughter houses. The world is not so filled with evil that every slaughterhouse has people like that. People turn to it because they also thinks it's healthier. The grain, fruits, and vegetable crops have stripped all the nutrients from the earth. Plants are more conscious, they are quite intelligent, cannabis gives an addictive feeling when used by humans, which allowed them to be grown everywhere, just for the addiction of humans, we decided to propagate them. The addictiveness of the grain carbohydrates or any other carbohydrate foods also allows them to propagate, we keep eating them as their sugar is addictive. I've read many ex-vegetarians accounts of how they were always hungry, always thinking about food, planning for food, obsessing constantly. A mother with two children when she decided to go vegan saw her child grab a stick of butter and start raving eat it. If a children's instinct to eat animal products isn't enough for you, I don't know what it is. My history teacher was a vegetarian for four years and broke it with pounds of meat, most likely because of the nutrient deficiency caused by plants as their minerals are very hard to absorb, which are much more important then vitamins. Minerals from meat are in their most bio-available form. They are many cases of vegan babies dying from malnutrition, no such case in mothers who eat plenty of healthful meat.
ImmortalPrince wrote:For a site that advocates universal oneness you are looking at the picture on too small a scale yes how tribes lived in the past was the proper way they hunted their food and used every part of the animal for something or another so that nothing was wasted and breeding animals for food is in poor taste and extremely wasteful but here is also something to think about plants are alive too and we are killing them for their energy just because it is more pure than what you get from animals it is deemed ok but in the end something is always dying its the inescapable circle of life..so in general what is the point of being a vegetarian why should it be more fair to kill one and not the other because plants have no consciousness if that is what you think you would be undoubtedly mistaken. just food for thought
Plants have consciousness ImmortalPrince. And you are right, the only way you can escape the circle of life is by become a breatharian. GL

#7
Malik wrote:Realize cattle do not destroy the land, it's farming that strips the topsoil of nutrients. If the systems were corrected for cattle raising, all cattle would be grass-fed on all the land which would replace all grains and crops and they would then be taken to a farm to slaughter. Many go vegetarian when they see the videos of the treatment of food animals in Only a few of the slaughter houses. The world is not so filled with evil that every slaughterhouse has people like that. People turn to it because they also thinks it's healthier. The grain, fruits, and vegetable crops have stripped all the nutrients from the earth. Plants are more conscious, they are quite intelligent, cannabis gives an addictive feeling when used by humans, which allowed them to be grown everywhere, just for the addiction of humans, we decided to propagate them. The addictiveness of the grain carbohydrates or any other carbohydrate foods also allows them to propagate, we keep eating them as their sugar is addictive. I've read many ex-vegetarians accounts of how they were always hungry, always thinking about food, planning for food, obsessing constantly. A mother with two children when she decided to go vegan saw her child grab a stick of butter and start raving eat it. If a children's instinct to eat animal products isn't enough for you, I don't know what it is. My history teacher was a vegetarian for four years and broke it with pounds of meat, most likely because of the nutrient deficiency caused by plants as their minerals are very hard to absorb, which are much more important then vitamins. Minerals from meat are in their most bio-available form. They are many cases of vegan babies dying from malnutrition, no such case in mothers who eat plenty of healthful meat.



Plants have consciousness ImmortalPrince. And you are right, the only way you can escape the circle of life is by become a breatharian. GL
It is a lot more complicated then that. Treatment of water resources is eroding land as well as poor farming practices. Governement regulation and corporate influence have not fostered any ability for farmers to afford to invest in their land properly though. Blame is compounded and complicated - and at this point fruitless. In order to arrive at good solutions - we need healthy brains - and at this point, what is the healthiest mass food available?

#8
Three14 wrote:It is a lot more complicated then that. Treatment of water resources is eroding land as well as poor farming practices. Governement regulation and corporate influence have not fostered any ability for farmers to afford to invest in their land properly though. Blame is compounded and complicated - and at this point fruitless. In order to arrive at good solutions - we need healthy brains - and at this point, what is the healthiest mass food available?
Meat. I thought I could have made that clear by now. Inuits lived by it, Moutainmen ate, when there was buffalo available, 8lbs a day(they were very active people, and most of their food was fat, they didn't eat much protein, fat was first and foremost). The only reason it is complicated to you is because you think you need "other" foods. Sure it will take some time to shift the food supply to feed everyone, but it will actually feed everybody without destroying the land.

#9
Malik wrote:Meat. I thought I could have made that clear by now. Inuits lived by it, Moutainmen ate, when there was buffalo available, 8lbs a day(they were very active people, and most of their food was fat, they didn't eat much protein, fat was first and foremost). The only reason it is complicated to you is because you think you need "other" foods. Sure it will take some time to shift the food supply to feed everyone, but it will actually feed everybody without destroying the land.
Sorry Malik - I meant no insult to your intelligence, I worded my response a bit "dick-heady". I have seen a lot of people that do not do well with meat - they don't process it easy, they get pains, they get cranky - they are more of them then not - almost like lactose intolerance sort of. You know, lactose ingestion only appeared in society a short time ago evolution wise in a small portion of the population making dairy farming possible - maybe its the same for carnivores?
Anyhow, I agree to a point with what you are saying, but I believe we have the know-how to make them both work if our political and economic systems supported it.

#10
animals have eyes, ears, souls. plants do not. i've been a vegetarian for 8 years and will never go back. it is wrong to kill a soul unless you do so out of self-defense. it is as simple as this.

#11
I believe trees and plants have consciousness ~ albeit not as sophisticated as animals ~ and qualia is solely in the DNA. Explain why anything without a consciousness would grow towards the sun and water sources? Is that programming? Define programming. I can also tell you that plants respond to energy healing and are sensitive to the chi in their environments. Are there any on this thread who have auric sight? I can sense the energy field of other living creatures and plants ~ I feel their energy fields when they come in contact with mine, feel their energy fields with my hands...see blue auric fields around trees. Rocks do not have such energy fields ~ but I do believe even they have a type of consciousness (though not qualia) ~ I'll leave that for another discussion.

Plants can have high or low vibrational energy depending upon how they were grown. Environmental devastation (e.g. floods), poor farming practices, etc. ~ with the subsequent stripping of nutrients from farming lands ~ is one issue that lowers vibrational energy in food. Pesticides, fungicides and other toxic chemicals and GMOs are another. A lot of produce is picked way before it's ripened, shipped long distances then sit on shelves for long periods, which also lowers the vibrational energy considerably. That being said, organic, locally grown produce from farmers with good growing practices can produce very high vibrational energy food with high nutritive value that can sustain a vegetarian, as long as they take care in eating a balanced diet. I place just as much importance in the vibrational energy of food as I do the nutrition ~ which I think a lot of people don't generally consider. I even Reiki my food ~ which I've found aids with digestion, neutralizes negative energies attached to the food and blesses all the people and life that brought the food to my table ~ most importantly, expressing gratitude for the nourishment.

Meat does provide beneficial nutritional value, regardless of the naysayers. But their vibrational energy must also be considered. Animals raised with hormones, pumped full of antibiotics on factory farms fed GM and garbage food should be avoided. It’s toxic. Conventional farms are also notorious for bad living conditions and creating high stress for the animals~ the emotional and mental vibrational energy of the animal does affect the quality of the food. One should do their research before they buy ~ smaller local ranchers/butchers are a better option if one chooses to eat meat. If one chooses to eat fish, buy wild, not farmed which is much higher in PCBs and dioxins and avoid the larger fish (shark, tuna (not the canned variety), swordfish) to minimize mercury consumption.

I admire your eco consciousness Natasha. There is considerable energy in water, food and resources expended for raising animals and then the fuel and resources for transporting meat. Not to mention the emotional toll of slaughterhouses ~ I feel sympathy towards those who have to work in large scale slaughterhouses ~ it's soulnumbing work. The amount of land required for grazing cattle is also a very serious consideration ~ rainforests are still being mowed down today for raising cattle. The majority of deforestation in the Amazon since the 60s is attributable to cattle ranchers and land speculators who burned massive tracts of rainforest for pasture. Brazilian government data indicates that over 60% of deforested land ends up as cattle pasture. If anything, avoid beef. The Hindus would appreciate your decision. :)

I mentioned the Hindus revering the sacred cow ~ there are other religions and belief systems that don't espouse eating of certain meat (e.g. Jews and Muslims don't eat pork) or must have specific preparation (e.g. kosher, halal). Buddhists vary on their vegetarian stances from school to school, but they lean towards vegetarians and compassion for all living beings. I think it's a very personal choice on whether or not one eats meat and it depends on their belief systems and their feelings towards animals and the cycle of life. I myself am mostly a pescatarian, but I will eat other meat on occasion, and I don't refuse what is offered to me as a guest in someone else's home. I support hunting of some game (e.g. deer), which overpopulate in some areas due to lack of natural predators ~ leading to starvation of the deer and the rise in tick plagues such as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and lyme disease. Overall, I do not judge someone on their choice of eating meat, of whether it's right or wrong from a philosophical perspective.

From a health perspective, I would recommend at least minimizing meat (a serving size no greater than a deck of playing cards) to no more than once a day. Although meat can provide great nutrition (e.g. omega 3's in salmon), more fruits and vegetables are better for you in the long run. I think the scientific studies that have shown that mice/lab rats fed low caloric diets live longer are fascinating. I think it's primarily because they put less stress on their body with the digestive process and expose themselves to fewer toxins as a result. Meats are calorie dense. Fruits and vegetables have more fiber, and your body doesn't digest this fiber ~ the nutrients and minerals are absorbed and the remaining fiber pushes through your digestive tract, increasing bowel transit time. This transit time is very important. The longer foods sit in your colon, the more toxins are released into your system ~ potentially leading to physical ailments like diverticulitis, fatigue, gas, excessive weight gain, etc. Meats, especially red meat can sit in your colon for a long time ~ over time mucoid plaque can form preventing optimal absorption of nutrition along with releasing toxins into the body. In addition, meats are higher in saturated fats and cholesterol, which are bad for the heart.

It's a complex issue ~ and there are no easy answers. I tried to look at many sides of the issue. Hope that helps.

#12
i just dont get it plants are alive just like everything else your just trying to justify killing something because you dont belive it has a soul but you must not be able to see and feel the life and energy plants have if you want to see these things just go outside and close your eyes and listen tune out traffic planes any noise that doesnt come directly from nature and youll hear and feel it its like a pulse from all around you thats life thats soul you dont need eyes and ears to have a soul

#13
I don't eat meat because I don't have to. People say it tastes good, but that is like saying that if human flesh tasted good you'd eat it just because. It is against our evolutionary traits as a species. Humans do what is best for the whole, and that is what brought us success as a species. Health wise, it all depends. If you eat french fries and fast food, that's not good for you but then it's your choice. If you kill another you infringe on their choice and that is tresspassing. It's complicated, and there is no right or wrong way unless you argue the environmental stance that more food is produced through vegetarian lifestyles, and that means that while it takes acres of land to feed cattle, the pounds of protein produced pale in comparison of the amount of legumes that could be produced pound for pound in protein. Look's wise, people look better when they eat flesh, but then you got to weigh that too. I'm superfical tbh, and I do likes me some facials, but I use plant peptides from nanotechnology born in laboratories. I think we as humans have come such a long way and can consume vitamins and proteins from laboratories, or just go organic and eat plant based foods. It's not like we are cavepeople any longer.

#14
ImmortalPrince wrote:i just dont get it plants are alive just like everything else your just trying to justify killing something because you dont belive it has a soul but you must not be able to see and feel the life and energy plants have if you want to see these things just go outside and close your eyes and listen tune out traffic planes any noise that doesnt come directly from nature and youll hear and feel it its like a pulse from all around you thats life thats soul you dont need eyes and ears to have a soul
Plants don't have a neurological system.

#15
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[h=1]Quotes About Vegetarianism[/h] Quotes tagged as "vegetarianism" (showing 1-30 of 3,000)
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“Animals are my friends...and I don't eat my friends.”
George Bernard Shaw
tags: animals, friends, humor, vegetarianism
2,087 people liked it


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“You can judge a man's true character by the way he treats his fellow animals.”
Paul McCartney
tags: animals, beatles, character, man, vegetarianism
478 people liked it


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“If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.”
Paul McCartney
tags: beatles, vegetarianism
471 people liked it


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“A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral.”
Leo Tolstoy
tags: animals, morality, vegetarianism
422 people liked it


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“Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.”
Albert Schweitzer
tags: compassion, ethics, peace, vegetarianism
330 people liked it


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“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
Albert Einstein
tags: human, temperament, vegetarianism
301 people liked it


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“You're thinking I'm one of those wise-ass California vegetarians who is going to tell you that eating a few strips of bacon is bad for your health. I'm not. I say its a free country and you should be able to kill yourself at any rate you choose, as long as your cold dead body is not blocking my driveway.”
Scott Adams
tags: food, humor, vegetarian, vegetarianism
285 people liked it


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“Even as a junkie I stayed true [to vegetarianism] - 'I shall have heroin, but I shan't have a hamburger.' What a sexy little paradox.”
Russell Brand, My Booky Wook
tags: addiction, drugs, heroin, vegetarianism
262 people liked it


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“Now I can look at you in peace; I don't eat you any more.”
Franz Kafka
tags: fish, vegetarianism
230 people liked it


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“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”
Thomas A. Edison
tags: ethics, non-violence, vegetarianism
220 people liked it


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“By eating meat we share the responsibility of climate change, the destruction of our forests, and the poisoning of our air and water. The simple act of becoming a vegetarian will make a difference in the health of our planet.”
Thich Nhat Hanh, The World We Have: A Buddhist Approach to Peace and Ecology
tags: ecology, peace, vegetarianism
186 people liked it


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“I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men.”
Dmitry Merezhkovsky, Romance of Leonard Da Vinci
tags: animal-rights, animals, murder, vegetarianism
173 people liked it


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“If slaughterhouses had glass walls, the whole world would be vegetarian.”
Linda McCartney, Linda's Kitchen: Simple and Inspiring Recipes for Meals Without Meat
tags: animals, beatles, dogs, veganism, vegetarianism
163 people liked it


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“I can't count the times that upon telling someone I am vegetarian, he or she responded by pointing out an inconsistency in my lifestyle or trying to find a flaw in an argument I never made. (I have often felt that my vegetarianism matters more to such people than it does to me.)”
Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals
tags: vegetarianism, vegetarians
160 people liked it


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“I did not become a vegetarian for my health, I did it for the health of the chickens.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer
tags: chicken, vegetarianism
155 people liked it


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“Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight.”
Albert Schweitzer
tags: ethics, suffering, vegetarianism
149 people liked it


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“People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times.”
Isaac Bashevis Singer
tags: ethics, vegetarian, vegetarianism
146 people liked it


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“The thought of two thousand people crunching celery at the same time horrified me.”
George Bernard Shaw
tags: food, vegetarianism
138 people liked it


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“Perhaps in the back of our minds we already understand, without all the science I've discussed, that something terribly wrong is happening. Our sustenance now comes from misery. We know that if someone offers to show us a film on how our meat is produced, it will be a horror film. We perhaps know more than we care to admit, keeping it down in the dark places of our memory-- disavowed. When we eat factory-farmed meat we live, literally, on tortured flesh. Increasingly, that tortured flesh is becoming our own.”
Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals
tags: animals, factory-farming, meat, science, veganism, vegetarianism
134 people liked it


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“You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car.”
Harvey Diamond
tags: vegetarianism
116 people liked it


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“I made the choice to be vegan because I will not eat (or wear, or use) anything that could have an emotional response to its death or captivity. I can well imagine what that must feel like for our non-human friends - the fear, the terror, the pain - and I will not cause such suffering to a fellow living being.”
Rai Aren
tags: animal-rights, animals, compassion, equality, ethical-vegan, kindness, life, life-affirming, speciesism, vegan, veganism, vegetarian, vegetarianism
98 people liked it


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“You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson
tags: ethics, vegetarianism
84 people liked it


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“Whether we change our lives or do nothing, we have responded. To do nothing is to do something.”
Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals
tags: animals, vegetarian, vegetarianism
78 people liked it


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“Ethically they had arrived at the conclusion that man's supremacy over lower animals meant not that the former should prey upon the latter, but that the higher should protect the lower, and that there should be mutual aid between the two as between man and man. They had also brought out the truth that man eats not for enjoyment but to live.”
Mahatma Gandhi
tags: vegetarianism
76 people liked it


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“Flesh eating is unprovoked murder.”
Benjamin Franklin
tags: vegetarianism
68 people liked it


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“While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?”
George Bernard Shaw
tags: ethics, vegetarianism
63 people liked it


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“The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of "real food for real people" you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.”
Neal D. Barnard
tags: beef, vegetarianism
57 people liked it


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“To expect life to treat you good is foolish as hoping a bull won't hit you because you are a vegetarian.”
Roseanne Barr
tags: bulls, fairness, justice, life, vegetarianism
48 people liked it


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“Elsewhere the paper notes that vegetarians and vegans (including athletes) 'meet and exceed requirements' for protein. And, to render the whole we-should-worry-about-getting-enough-protein-and-therefore-eat-meat idea even more useless, other data suggests that excess animal protein intake is linked with osteoporosis, kidney disease, calcium stones in the urinary tract, and some cancers. Despite some persistent confusion, it is clear that vegetarians and vegans tend to have more optimal protein consumption than omnivores. ”
Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals
tags: food, health, meat, veganism, vegetarianism
48 people liked it


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“Vegetables are a must on a diet. I suggest carrot cake, zucchini bread, and pumpkin pie.”
Jim Davis
tags: healthy-diet, vegetarianism
46 people liked it


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#16
precious wrote:It's not like we are cavepeople any longer.
Yes, we've become much more ignorant and stupid as a result. We deny our proper dietary requirements in the name of calling all animals our friends. They'll say bye when we starve ourselves nutritionally to death.
The land we inherited was great when we found it. I mean when we stole it from the healthy and robust buffalo-eating Indians. now if you look at it, it's rather embarrassing. Poisonous grains plotted all over the landscape. Walking in a city seeing large blobs of fat so big you wonder how the person manages to reproduce two other fat kids with him/her. Eating white bread and you "healthful" vegetables in the name of health at every meal, and let's not forget the no-fat milk and cheese! No meat though, that makes you fat. Blah... What a world we live in.

#17
Sh4d0w wrote:Some species of animals need meat to survive. Humans do not. We are healthier as herbivores (vegans) so therefore humans who eat meat are doing it solely for their tastebuds, not survival. Consider if an advanced alien species invaded Earth and enslaved humans and killed them for meat, just because they like the taste. If you think it's still okay to kill just to enjoy flavour, come over here and let me kill you so I can have a nice dinner. :)
Seriously... If there is anyone eating for taste it's carbohydrate eaters. So don't bullshit yourself saying we eat for the taste. Carbohydrates have MUCH more intense flavor, that's why they are addictive and you try to justify why you eat them. Such intense flavor dulls tastebuds to real meat. Meat has a good taste but that is because it is nutrient rich, so you eat by hunger, which is what you need, compared to what you want(overeating) which is caused by the addictive sugar in plants, which are nearly devoid of nutrition.

#18
malik, you are so far gone i don't even know where to start. at first i thought you were trolling then i realized that people like you really do still exist. i'm sorry for your ignorance. i'm sorry for the animals that have to die in order for you to feel satisfied.

karma police, arrest this man

#19
thedog wrote:animals have eyes, ears, souls. plants do not. i've been a vegetarian for 8 years and will never go back. it is wrong to kill a soul unless you do so out of self-defense. it is as simple as this.
Im not arguing, but why is it naturally okay for animals to kill other animals. I mean, lions, wolves and stuff can't survive on anything else.

#20
[QUOTE=Malik;1037648]A mother with two children when she decided to go vegan saw her child grab a stick of butter and start raving eat it. If a children's instinct to eat animal products isn't enough for you, I don't know what it is. My history teacher was a vegetarian for four years and broke it with pounds of meat, most likely because of the nutrient deficiency caused by plants as their minerals are very hard to absorb, which are much more important then vitamins. Minerals from meat are in their most bio-available form. They are many cases of vegan babies dying from malnutrition, no such case in mothers who eat plenty of healthful meat.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. There are ways to gain enough nutrition while being vegetarian, even vegan, but if it's humans natural instinct, I think going vegan or vegetarian should be a choice on how the person feels.

#21
[QUOTE=puravida;1037685]

From a health perspective, I would recommend at least minimizing meat (a serving size no greater than a deck of playing cards) to no more than once a day. Although meat can provide great nutrition (e.g. omega 3's in salmon), more fruits and vegetables are better for you in the long run. [/QUOTE]

Thank you puravida, your response was really enlightening, and I definately agree that plants have a consciousness too. Trees especially. I bond to plants more than I do with people and other animals. Rocks as well funnily enough.
What you said about minimizing meat to no greater than a deck of playing cards in one serving, that is exactly how I see it, even less than once a day. I also think that red meat (beef, pork, etc) and white meat (chicken, fish), should be even in our consumption.
Yeah it most definitely is a complex issue. I dont appreciate people straight away telling me that I am thinking wrong. So your response I appreciate a lot. Thank you xx

#22
[QUOTE=Sh4d0w;1037796]They need meat to survive. Humans do not.[/QUOTE]

Humans do need it to survive in a way. Its natural for us to need meat. I think its a personal choice, thats all. But people should not depend on meat and people should respect it more than they do

#23
Of course, I can't believe this thread turned into a 'my gods better than your god' debate. Until we can harness pure energy.... We have to eat something. Like any situation there is no right and wrong! Any person that things there's is the natural/best way for everyone has much to learn. Being so absolute just slows down our transitioning process. Each to their own, just choose the best for you.... Peace out :)

#24
it's not just that we don't need meat to survive. it's that we have enormous brains that have allowed us to become civilized. animals are NOT civilized. a civilized person understands that it is morally wrong to kill an animal to satisfy a certain taste.

every time you take a bite of meat think about the pain that that animal went through just so you could have a little more tastier of a meal.

#25
[QUOTE=thedog;1037852]it's not just that we don't need meat to survive. it's that we have enormous brains that have allowed us to become civilized. animals are NOT civilized. a civilized person understands that it is morally wrong to kill an animal to satisfy a certain taste.

every time you take a bite of meat think about the pain that that animal went through just so you could have a little more tastier of a meal.[/QUOTE]

If its so wrong to kill an animal for food you must be saying that humans are the only smart animals on earth and that's not right. All the ancient cultures ate meat and they worshiped the animal they killed, thanked the gods for giving them food for survival. Meat is important to human health. If its the quickest way to gain certain nutrients, I still don't think it's wrong.
The way you are expressing your opinion is a bit too forced. I can see what you mean about eating meat being entirely wrong but you make animals sound stupid. if that is so, then the only wrong thing would be to eat another intelligent being , I.e. canabalism. So lets not take this further.

#26
[QUOTE=Natasha;1037913]If its so wrong to kill an animal for food you must be saying that humans are the only smart animals on earth and that's not right. All the ancient cultures ate meat and they worshiped the animal they killed, thanked the gods for giving them food for survival. Meat is important to human health. If its the quickest way to gain certain nutrients, I still don't think it's wrong.
The way you are expressing your opinion is a bit too forced. I can see what you mean about eating meat being entirely wrong but you make animals sound stupid. if that is so, then the only wrong thing would be to eat another intelligent being , I.e. canabalism. So lets not take this further.[/QUOTE]

non-humans are not capable of growing crops, of creating processed foods, of manufacturing refrigerators etc. the proteins found in meat are the WEAKEST of all proteins. beyond that, meat taxes your digestive system more than almost any other food.

this isn't a complicated issue at all.

#27
[QUOTE=thedog;1037668]animals have eyes, ears, souls. plants do not. i've been a vegetarian for 8 years and will never go back. it is wrong to kill a soul unless you do so out of self-defense. it is as simple as this.[/QUOTE]

That is ridiculous. Who are you to say that plants don't have souls?

[QUOTE=Sh4d0w;1037796]They need meat to survive. Humans do not.[/QUOTE]

You have to speak for yourself, there. I was vegetarian for 3 years and got progressively more sick the entire time. I felt massively better as soon as I added meat back into my diet. Genetically, some people require more meat than others. But it's natural and healthy for all humans to eat meat. Just because some people can survive and do okay without it doesn't make that any less true.

In general, I do not believe in vegetarianism. I think it's fine if someone wants to choose that for themselves, as long as they don't attempt to force their beliefs on others. More compassionate and balanced farming and meat practices, I definitely do believe in. I also believe in reducing meat and eating more vegetables if possible. Everyone has to find the right balance for themselves. But denying yourself a healthy, nutritious form of complete protein isn't feasible for most people for lifelong health. That's why you don't meet very many long-term vegans. Lacto-ovo vegetarianism is okay as long as you eat enough eggs. But it didn't work for me. My body needs red meat.

#28
[QUOTE=climbing;1037922]That is ridiculous. Who are you to say that plants don't have souls?
[/QUOTE]please tell me you are joking. plants do not have consciousness. no central nervous system, no brain, no capacity to feel pain. no free will, i can go on and on

#29
So your definition of a "soul" is consciousness? What about people in comas? Also many scientists believe that plants do have some form of consciousness.

#30
[QUOTE=climbing;1037926]So your definition of a "soul" is consciousness? What about people in comas? Also many scientists believe that plants do have some form of consciousness.[/QUOTE]

coma is temporary unconsciousness. they aren't dead. if they were and they tasted any good, you'd probably take a bite out of them, wouldn't you

#31
[QUOTE=thedog;1037920]non-humans are not capable of growing crops, of creating processed foods, of manufacturing refrigerators etc. the proteins found in meat are the WEAKEST of all proteins. beyond that, meat taxes your digestive system more than almost any other food.

this isn't a complicated issue at all.[/QUOTE]

Obviously it is a complicated issue. We all respect your decision of being vegetarian, but there is simply no point straight off telling people that they shouldn't eat meat at all because of your very opinion. When I started this thread I wanted perspective. And I got perspective, even from yourself, which I appreciate. I am making changes to my diet now, cutting down on meat consumption, but I am anaemic, and it was pretty bad. In order for me to not get seriously ill from it I need to eat meat because I like to avoid iron supplementary pills. There is nothing more rich in iron than meat. But meat isnt a favourite food of mine. When I eat it i DO consider the animal which had to live its whole life just so I could have it in one meal. But I do not appreciate someone telling that what I do is entirely wrong and that all my thinking is wrong.

#32
[QUOTE=thedog;1037778]malik, you are so far gone i don't even know where to start. at first i thought you were trolling then i realized that people like you really do still exist. i'm sorry for your ignorance. i'm sorry for the animals that have to die in order for you to feel satisfied.

karma police, arrest this man[/QUOTE]

That's pretty far, even though you said this a whole day ago. I just realised that there are still people out there that judge other people on their beliefs. I mean WHAT? What is respect and acceptance to you? If they share your exact beliefs? Woah. I respect everyone, even you, but please don't make this a joke by saying other people are a joke. I wish I could delete threads now...

#33
[QUOTE=Sh4d0w;1037934]What? No. We can live and be healthy without meat so therefore we do not need it to survive, and we are also healthier without it. Our bodies are designed to be herbivores.[/QUOTE]

We certainly are getting that way. Humans started off as needing meat as a soul food for survival (and by soul I mean main food, not as in an actual soul...). Thats why we dont have sharp canines anymore. BUT we do not have herbivorous teeth yet! Have a look at the jaws of cows and sheep. Our teeth, even the shape of our head do not resemble anything like that. We have back teeth of herbivores, but the skull shape and front teeth more of carnivores. So who is to argue against that we are not omnivores? Humans do need meat to survive, as children. If a child grows up without ever consuming meat, they are obviously going to be smaller and deficient in growth. Its been proven. But most adults can live fine without meat. It just depends what TYPE of plant matter they eat. You would need to be very selective in what plants to eat, which have enough iron and carbohydrates needed for our body to survive healthily. And not every place in the world has these plants high in iron and other things. Even though we can more easily get them thanks to transport and markets. What Im trying to say is, its NOT natural for a human to be vegetarian, its natural for them to make a decision, because the human dynamic is omnivorous.

#34
I know no one is going to listen to this, but PLEASE stop telling everyone that they are wrong. Just put in your OPINION and I will listen to it and consider it. You cant change people's minds, I can't believe people do not see that. You should look at everything with an open mind. and I mean EVERYTHING.
I am not getting offended, and no one is 'getting to me', I'm just getting too surprised at how persistent people are at forcing their opinions on others and insisting they are wrong. Please...

#35
exactly natasha that's what im saying and im not trying to say someone is wrong i dont want it to come off that way i just want people to think about all life not just the life they deem more important but i cant make people see and feel what i do and if being a vegetarian is right for you cuz killing animals is wrong then fine but i eat both because you need both to survive if your a vegetarian you have to take vitamin supplements to replace what you are missing from not eating meat i just want everyone to see the bigger picture all life is precious that is why we love animals and lets say a beautiful flower but both are edible and we make the conscious choice to eat what we do but ive said all i can in the end its really up to the own person to eat what they do

#36
[QUOTE=Sh4d0w;1037934]What? No. We can live and be healthy without meat so therefore we do not need it to survive, and we are also healthier without it. Our bodies are designed to be herbivores.[/QUOTE]

Did you even read my post? Not all of us can live and "be healthy" without the complete protein and nutrients that meat provides.

#37
[QUOTE=thedog;1037927]coma is temporary unconsciousness. they aren't dead. if they were and they tasted any good, you'd probably take a bite out of them, wouldn't you[/QUOTE]

Many species hunt other species in nature. You can deny your most basic instincts if you want, but I certainly am not going to.

#38
I do feel bad for animals, but don't compare yourself with animals. Humans know better and plus I believe humans are herbivores. Our ancestors had herbivore teeth. Also vegans live 6 to 8 years longer than meat eaters. Vegetarian is much better for humans.

#39
[QUOTE=SaveTheEarth12;1038036]I do feel bad for animals, but don't compare yourself with animals. Humans know better and plus I believe humans are herbivores. Our ancestors had herbivore teeth. Also vegans live 6 to 8 years longer than meat eaters. Vegetarian is much better for humans.[/QUOTE]
Our ancestors were not herbivores.... They were more carnivorous but actually omnivorous.
I don't believe it's any healthier to be a vegetarian, but I made the decision yesterday to try it out, and honestly, at the moment I think I'm gonna stay this way because I now do feel bad for the animals.
I know meat is almost essential for the human diet, but fruit and veggies is higher on the food pyramid ;) hahah ill have to find another way to get iron into my body.

#40
[QUOTE=SaveTheEarth12;1038036]I do feel bad for animals, but don't compare yourself with animals. Humans know better and plus I believe humans are herbivores. Our ancestors had herbivore teeth. Also vegans live 6 to 8 years longer than meat eaters. Vegetarian is much better for humans.[/QUOTE]

Teeth are not a great indicator of diet... the digestive system is. Our digestive system cannot digest cellulose(or what you health people call "fiber"), i don't know what the hell makes you think humans are herbivores when we can't even digest the main substance of a herbivore's diet. Why? Because we are opportunistic carnivores, in times of scarcity of meat, we can subsist and manage adequately on plant foods, though compromising the integrity of our intestinal walls, not to mention our health for the benefit of surviving the next day. Vegans, I ASSURE you, do not live longer then pure carnivores. Typical vegan propaganda.

It's quite pitiful to see more and more people looking to plants for healing while more and more people get unhealthier. I always see posts here about the beneficial healing properties of this, that, and the other thing. What the fuck, if, we most think, we have been eating the best diet(omnivorous or starch-based), why do we need these millions of herbs for anti-this anti-that properties. It's a vicious cycle of trying this then moving on to that because even though that plant or herb or whatever fixed some problem of yours it caused another and now you'll use another one. My diet does not have any herb, and plant substance. I have never fell and will never fall ill as long as I stick to man's true diet, which is quite easy with boundless energy, clearheaded, calm zen-like feeling I get. I've never had such experience with anything else. That's why I am so protective of the reputation of carnivorism and can hardly stand the bullshit I read about plants being the path to health. Hardly. The only use plants have is for transitioning into carnivorism instead of going cold turkey.

#41
Thank you shadow. I should not be doing this because I need iron from meat and that's the easiest way to get it, but it's my choice, I'm going to take other foods high in iron now.

anyway, humans have no use for their appendix now, making them definitely not herbivores! But this is still my choice. I don't like the way meat has to be so fatty and oily anyway (from supermarkets at least, fresh meat is much healthier, cooked haha) but I've made up my mind. Not going vegan though, humans definitely need calcium, protein and such. No one can argue that.

#42
[QUOTE=Sh4d0w;1038118]There's plenty of protein in nuts and soy, and milk does more harm than good for calcium. Milk is extremely high in protein (much more than a healthy amount) and protein leaches calcium from your bones so really vegans end up with more calcium and stronger bones.[/QUOTE]

Extremely high in protein? 8g is extremely high? You just made my day. I agree the protein requirement of humans is about only 30-40g for average but if we get more then we need it is just excreted out through urine, never used for energy but in extreme starvation. Btw, the calcium in dairy products is actually fully absorbable while the plant have inhibitors to block mineral(including calcium) absorption. Natasha, you only think it is too fatty because you have been accultured to low-fat. If you are going to be vegetarian, at least eat full-fat dairy and eggs so you can essential saturated and monounsaturated fats along with absorbable minerals(no iron in them though).

#43
Oh yeah.. vegan's are healthy lol..that's why they all look so sickly , frail, thin and anemic. Look at R a b a n a and her awesome diet, how well has that worked for her? not so great..breaking hips at 60? pfff, a host of other medical maladies...yeah..Eat what you like as you are only on this earth in physical form for a number of years. Don't let other's and their wack ideas or ideals influence your time on this earth. Meat is good, in moderation.

#45
eggs = meat.

if you feel you are not getting enough iron, eat leafy greens. avoid caffeine intake in the hours before and after consuming the iron.

i've been a vegetarian for 8 years and i haven't been to a doctor since my high school's mandatory physical for basketball tryouts. that was in 1999.

i'm 6 foot, 165 pounds.

i'm winning

#46
I don't believe there is enough protein, calcium, iron in things that aren't animal products. I do believe it will be a good change for me, but I might have to turn back to meat since I mightn't have stopped growing yet. I am completely open to both, well all three. I respect people who like meat, people who are vegetarian and vegans too. I just don't like it when people think their food diet is WAY BETTER so yeah. I'm just trying out vegetarian, because I've been turned off meat for a while anyway. So please, no one keep going on saying that they know everything, because there are arguments for both sides. I still believe meat is important, I'm just trying this out. Okay? Cool :)

#47
[QUOTE=ImmortalPrince;1037642]For a site that advocates universal oneness you are looking at the picture on too small a scale yes how tribes lived in the past was the proper way they hunted their food and used every part of the animal for something or another so that nothing was wasted and breeding animals for food is in poor taste and extremely wasteful but here is also something to think about plants are alive too and we are killing them for their energy just because it is more pure than what you get from animals it is deemed ok but in the end something is always dying its the inescapable circle of life..so in general what is the point of being a vegetarian why should it be more fair to kill one and not the other because plants have no consciousness if that is what you think you would be undoubtedly mistaken. just food for thought :)[/QUOTE]

No, actually - if one eats only things that come off of trees/plants naturally(asking to be eaten so as to propagate their seeds!), like fruit, seeds, beans, nuts, certain grains, vegetables like eggplant, pepper, tomato, squash, pumpkin, etc...then one is not killing or hurting any thing at all... It's only the leafy vegetables that feel pain becuase they grow as a plant and don't "come off" when ripe like fruits, etc.....Cleve Backster is the person who showed that plants feel pain when ripped, etc...

#48
[QUOTE=Malik;1038114]Teeth are not a great indicator of diet... the digestive system is. Our digestive system cannot digest cellulose(or what you health people call "fiber"), i don't know what the hell makes you think humans are herbivores when we can't even digest the main substance of a herbivore's diet. Why? Because we are opportunistic carnivores, in times of scarcity of meat, we can subsist and manage adequately on plant foods, though compromising the integrity of our intestinal walls, not to mention our health for the benefit of surviving the next day. Vegans, I ASSURE you, do not live longer then pure carnivores. Typical vegan propaganda.



It's quite pitiful to see more and more people looking to plants for healing while more and more people get unhealthier. I always see posts here about the beneficial healing properties of this, that, and the other thing. What the fuck, if, we most think, we have been eating the best diet(omnivorous or starch-based), why do we need these millions of herbs for anti-this anti-that properties. It's a vicious cycle of trying this then moving on to that because even though that plant or herb or whatever fixed some problem of yours it caused another and now you'll use another one. My diet does not have any herb, and plant substance. I have never fell and will never fall ill as long as I stick to man's true diet, which is quite easy with boundless energy, clearheaded, calm zen-like feeling I get. I've never had such experience with anything else. That's why I am so protective of the reputation of carnivorism and can hardly stand the bullshit I read about plants being the path to health. Hardly. The only use plants have is for transitioning into carnivorism instead of going cold turkey.[/QUOTE]

Watch this funny video and then maybe you will see innacuracies in what you are saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q

#50
[QUOTE=laureye;1038275]In "Black Elk Speaks", Black Elk says he got a very strong message from his spirit guides to "Stop killing the animals".[/QUOTE]

It wasn't a guide of any sort, but his biased consciousness. If I were to say,"My guide told me that humans will pay dearly for leaving their true habitat and lifestyle in the plains of Africa", that would be based on previous knowledge and my own personal bias. So in the case of nutritional requirements, you need hard evidence not based in the brain, where the ego lies but through unbiased research.

[QUOTE=laureye;1038274]Watch this funny video and then maybe you will see innacuracies in what you are saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q[/QUOTE]

The usual shit, I rather not waste my time writing out everything. Here is a link on our comparing digestive systems:
https://second-opinions.ginwiz.com/ig8de ... son4.html/

Also, from the Bear:
"Archeological digs into paleolithic people’s homesites show zero evidence of fruit or any type of food vegetation residues, like seed, stems or skin. So any grazing of such foods occurred opportunistically and was done where found.

Our physiognomy is due to the development of speech, our mouths are only secondarily used to eat with- talking has preempted and ruled the size and shape of our mouths and oral cavities. The commonly heard and false contention that we have the organs and teeth of an omnivore are just crude vegetarian propaganda which is so wrong that a child without training should be able to demonstrate the fallacy of by comparing pictures.

Our intestinal structure and length is that of a carnivore- like a big cat, and nothing like an omnivore like the rat or pig.

Our teeth are pure carnivore, they have a continuous enamel coat, are quite sharp, erupt once and do not grow or get replaced just as is the norm for animal of insectivore lineage. They are utterly unlike the complex teeth of herbivores and omnivores- whose teeth grow throughout life.

We really don’t have any very ‘close’ relatives- a term needing definition, as the closest, the pongids or great apes (some of whom like the chimp are good hunters and eat large amounts of meat- mostly monkeys) separated out ~6 million years ago. Of the large genera primates, many are heavy meat eaters, some are widely omnivorous, a few rather short lived monkeys are herbivorous, like the proboscids, and some- like the tree shrew are totally insectivorous."

"Woops, another late comer who did not read the thread. We have already covered the subject of the great apes and their various diets, from the highly carnivorous chimps to the tree-bark grub eating gorillas. The only HERBIVOROUS PRIMATES are the proboscis monkeys. They are sickly, big-bellied little forest-dwelling animals with spindly limbs, bad teeth and a short lifespan.

We are about 5 million years down along a totally different evolutionary path than all the other primates, great apes included, so all comparisons are invalid. We have spawned a few hominid off-shoots along the way, who apparently tried to become omnivores or herbivores, but all failed."

Looking at pigs for your dietary lifestyle(the one in the video and the government) proves you are just terrible at providing hardcore facts as the foolish government nutritionists you follow.
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