#52
Judgment (or judgement[1]) is the evaluation of evidence in the making of a decision.[2][3][4] The term has three distinct uses:
Informal - Opinions expressed as facts.
Informal and psychological – used in reference to the quality of cognitive faculties and adjudicational capabilities of particular individuals, typically called wisdom or discernment.
Legal – used in the context of legal trial, to refer to a final finding, statement, or ruling, based on a considered weighing of evidence, called "adjudication". See spelling note for further explanation.
Religious – used in the concept of salvation to refer to the adjudication of God in determining Heaven or Hell for each and all human beings.
[edit]
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Synonyms:1. determination. 2. discrimination, discernment, perspicacity; sagacity, wisdom, intelligence, prudence. 6a. verdict, decree.
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Synonym:A word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another

#54
It is also said there is a very thin line between love and hate, however I think the differences between the two are pretty obvious.

Just as you can pull something off dictionary.com, you could look up the differences between discernment and judgment on google. However, I happen to teach a class to others on how to redirect people, which means I can see when it's being used on me.

I understand why you would try such; butit doesn't work with me. Why ignore basically everything I've said?

#55
I didn't ignore anything you just said lol. Who said that the line between love and hate is thin? They're antonyms. Doesn't sound like a credible person. I don't believe being redirected is always bad, being redirected from religion myself 6 years ago.
I've just now googled the difference between judgement and discernment only to be separated in definition by religious misinterpretations of the words.

#56
[QUOTE=Sdboutlaw;947062]There is a difference between discernment and judgment. You are using qualities of the former to describe the latter.

There is also a difference between discussion and debate and being judgmental.

You're also attempting to use a slippery slope to prove that what you do is okay. Truth is, not everyone claims others are being judgmental and there are actual discussions and debates that occur everywhere on the planet daily without that. Your personal bias is showing, probably because you've heard this before. The fact that you're attaching the "what kind of bullshit" argument to your slippery slope really is showing your personal bias.

People have the right to use discernment in order to make decisions that affect them personally. Judgment, on the other hand, is what has caused multiple wars, caused pagans to be burned in Salem, caused Black people to be enslaved in a country founded on the principles of freedom, has caused women to be proverbially chained to their stoves, has caused gay people to kill themselves and not be allowed to marry. Or, in this particular case, cause people to think that nuns are all stupid because of the path they chose that YOU feel is wrong. Discernment is cooperative. Judgment creates Us v Them.

Nun haters versus nun lovers.

Non Christian versus Christian

Minority versus non minority

Judgment breeds it all, which is highly unfortunate.[/QUOTE]
In case you felt like I was ignoring this,
Image

#57
How is it ok to be judgemental of someone when that choice does not effect you, everyone has the right to choose there own path. Making negative abusive comments are just that abusive regardless of how you try to word it.

#59
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947110]The choice affects the intellectual advancement of mankind.[/QUOTE]


lmao you keep telling yourself that if thats what it takes to justify it.

#60
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947098]I didn't ignore anything you just said lol. Who said that the line between love and hate is thin? They're antonyms. Doesn't sound like a credible person. I don't believe being redirected is always bad, being redirected from religion myself 6 years ago.
I've just now googled the difference between judgement and discernment only to be separated in definition by religious misinterpretations of the words.[/QUOTE]

You didn't have to tell me you've been redirected from religion...your vitriol that I was originally addressing already told me that.

#61
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947099]In case you felt like I was ignoring this,
Image
[/QUOTE]

Oh, if Mr Bean says its okay to criticize and judge, it MUST be okay!

Seriously, though you're completely missing the point. This isnt about being allowed to criticize everything but religion. This was about you judging another posters comments due to your judgment about religion and those who choose to follow it. You vs Them. Your attempt to play the victim because "no one" can criticize religion is baseless here.

#62
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947110]The choice affects the intellectual advancement of mankind.[/QUOTE]

Wooow. If this is what you believe, I truly feel for you. That attitude is why I can't marry my girlfriend in this state.

#63
Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.

human rights and the all too human wrongs

#65
human rights and the all too human wrongs

You believe you have the right to say anything? Why?

Those who haven't had formal philosophy classes or enough history often seem to confuse political liberties with the contemporary technology which makes it possible for anyone to say anything. There are informed opinions, based on experience, formal education, or even simply being well-read on a subject. Which are not the same as personal likes and dislikes.

Where does the idea of "rights" come from? It's a product of Enlightenment (1700's) political philosophies. Which are a product of the European idea of rationalism. Here's where it gets tricky. Because a nuanced explanation is impossible in paragraph form. Rationalism was itself derived from the work of medieval Catholic theologians who concluded from their observations of the natural world that there were physical laws. These laws could reveal the mind of the creator, and were therefore proper to study formally. Hence the rise of western universities.

Way back in the ancient world, arose a new religion. One not grounded in ethnicity (tribe) or locality, like the Egyptian or Greek deities. This new cult even had the gall to claim that slaves and women had souls, that all humans did. The educated ancients found such a notion silly. They knew peasants were little more than animals. But this each having a "soul" business easily morphed into the idea of individualism. We in the postmodern world are so used to it we forget individualism has a history.

From the US Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." To whom is it self-evident? To the assumed rational thinker. Check the level of current political discussion-- see much rationality? All men; well, not really. They meant not slaves, not women, not Indians, not even white men without property. Modern psychology has revealed the scope of the irrational. And the post Einstein and post Heisenberg world of relativity and uncertainty pretty much demolished the Enlightenment assumption of the objective observer separated from whatever is being observed.

SInce it's being argued here that the "Creator" part is irrelevant, on what are rights based? Political agreement, then. Which also means these rights are the arbitrary decisions of humans. Which can be voted away. Who is to say what is good, what is true, what is (a) right? Does might make right?

As for what is good for the evolution of humanity... that implies a teleology. That's a fancy word from theology meaning purpose towards some end. Which mainstream biological science denies. The doctrine is of randomlessness and purposelessness, of evolution based on random mutations.

There are several atheistic scientists who have written about religion as a human biological survival mechanism, thereby attempting to explain the prevalence of the phenomenon. Those approaches leave out the entire dimension of experience. A complex subject not included in any definition of religion as submission to weird dogmas, as ignorant tribal lore, or as mere personal belief without evidence.

An analogy. Part of what makes us human is the ability to enjoy art. By scientific analysis, a painting is a chunk of cloth with splotches of pigment. It is the artistic, the poetic, the imaginal, the mystical, and even the religious dimensions that give it meaning. Same for human life.

What's good for evolution also implies the ability to foresee the distant future. Plus the incredible intellect necessary to judge what the entire species needs for the next millennia. That in itself would be evidence of deity.

#66
Moose,

One of the biggest flaws as human is to see flaws of others but not of ourself. Before I question you, I should question myself, if what I say or do is the right thing or if what I do and say is any better than you. If not, than I am the same as you or worse than you, wouldn't this mean I'm just talking about myself when I point out all the negative about others? Believe me, I'm not talking or pointing finger at you, I am talking about my self awareness and how it has made me a happier person. Us human being has so many things about ourself that we do not understand how and why we think the way we do, this is why we should not judge others until we truly understand ourself. The interesting thing is those wiser with a better understanding of themself, usually don't judge others. I think it is smart to ask why to understand instead of pointing fingers. Flame me if you want, but I accept my flaws.

#67
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947187]Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.[/QUOTE]

This is just a terribly shortsighted and self contained view. However, it's a view I had myself when I was younger and trying to figure out why "HE" let bad things happen to me. First I looked for the truth within the confines of religion. Then, I got pissed and cast it aside and declared that if HE existed, he was the biggest bastard ever walking and I didn't need him anyway TYVM. I lived pretty angry for about five years until I woke up one day and realized that my anger was what was holding me back, not the religion. I then started walking my own path without letting Gods let down consume me further.

Looking back,the most important things anyone could have said to me is the following: religion has been hijacked and has been turned into a tool to turn people against each other if you are not one of them. Your anger does nothing but fuel that very hijacking. Your judgment is what they WANT. You're acting like a puppet on a string--dancing away even as you think you're bucking the system.

If I was told THAT when I was 15, I'd be in a much better place spiritually and emotionally now that I'm in my 30s. So with all the love in the world, cut the damned strings already and stop letting that rule you.

#68
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947187]Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.[/QUOTE]

And you're entitled to your view, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Heaven only knows that I have cause to feel bitter towards religion - and for a very long time I WAS bitter; bitter about what I'd gone through; bitter about those people still stuck in the 'trap' and I judged them. Oh man did I judge them! lol. Their blindness, their inability to break free even when they knew that they were in the wrong I wanted to shake them into wakfulness.

But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.

#69
alan: I see many flaws in myself I'm not denying that I am often judging others, I simply don't believe it is wrong.

sdlboutlaw: I don't believe god isn't real because bad things happen to me I believe he isn't real because the claim is improbable. Absolutely no amount of anything could change that. Not unless he appeared in front of my eyes..

#70
[QUOTE=sshenry;947429]And you're entitled to your view, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Heaven only knows that I have cause to feel bitter towards religion - and for a very long time I WAS bitter; bitter about what I'd gone through; bitter about those people still stuck in the 'trap' and I judged them. Oh man did I judge them! lol. Their blindness, their inability to break free even when they knew that they were in the wrong I wanted to shake them into wakfulness.

But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.[/QUOTE]

You're right it does make me bitter, however I do have a couple christian friends. I don't really know how they're any different than the others I've encountered but they just are. I realize that me just bitching doesn't change much there are many athiest's just as frustrated as I am ranting on and on about the same things I do yet religion is more common than athiesm. I guess it just feels good to call someone stupid once in awhile, I'm definately not ashamed of that though, Its part of the process.

#71
I think we all make judgements about ourselves and other people,
based on our experience, or the experience of others. There are
somethings as we judge, that in some societies it is considered
to be best to be unspoken. If you do speak of this unspeakable
in that society, you are being impolite, insulting everyone.

In this Indigo Society this type of behavior is considered not proper.
The Generic name we have for this improper behavior is "Trolling".

To tell someone directly, that their pathway is the wrong one,
because of historical president or any reason, including just
your opinion, is not proper behavior; in This Indigo Society.
It's crassness polarized many of us,
and effected our "Judgement" of you;
and ourselves . . . . .

But that is my problem not yours. I see the manner of your original
statement as a lesson of/for my learning. It was objectionable to me,
and I stopped to consider why. . . .
So I made an observation that in your voiced
expression of your hurt and anger, there are
lessons for all of us.

One of these lessons is: Be careful of becoming your reflection.

Be in harmony,
be in beauty.
roger

#72
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947541]alan: I see many flaws in myself I'm not denying that I am often judging others, I simply don't believe it is wrong.

sdlboutlaw: I don't believe god isn't real because bad things happen to me I believe he isn't real because the claim is improbable. Absolutely no amount of anything could change that. Not unless he appeared in front of my eyes..[/QUOTE]

If the claim is improbable, why be so angry? I am genuinely unable to understand that correlation...

#73
Im not sure i've ever met anyone so comfortable with their own beliefs that they couldn't change their point of view when they learn something new, The sad thing is that some don't want to learn anything new as that may mean having to change their beliefs.

#74
[QUOTE=Sdboutlaw;947660]If the claim is improbable, why be so angry? I am genuinely unable to understand that correlation...[/QUOTE]

Because so many people walk through life on their knees with their eyes closed. There are people in my neighborhood with signs in their yard saying "Pray for America" as if it matters if you just close your eyes and hope something will change. Nah pimp, you gotta do something prayer obviously doesn't help. If it "works" its coincidence

#77
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947852]Cause its retarded and it doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Okay, if you want something smart and sensible, scroll down and read my nuanced reply at #58.

History, political philosophy, theology, and the teleological implications of an appeal to the future evolution of humanity. All on just one page.

#80
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;948071]I don't want something I already have.[/QUOTE]

I have reflected on some new information such that I've changed my mind. I now AGREE with you.

Here's why: IMO, it's the karma of the western world to develop the path of individualism. The ancient Greek philosophers advised "know thyself." The Hermeticists of Alexandria, Egypt said "as above, so below." In biblical language, "the kingdom of God is within."

The path of individualism means that an inborn trait within every person is the divine, the Absolute, the universe, perfection, or any other term you want. Therefore every human has the right to develop as is best for them. Yes, you DO HAVE and you DO KNOW already.

That's not to say personal likes are the same as the ideas of someone who actually has worked on something and knows about a subject by real experience. But political, social, economic, religious, educational, ethnic, and other authorities maintain their power and status by convincing the rest of us they know best. They don't. If they did, the world wouldn't be such a mess.

Consensus reality is about limitations. You do have something better already.

#81
[QUOTE=Hekuni;944866]My trolling skills are bad? Im one of the best trolls there is bizzelnitch. Ive been trolling since the first time I ever went online in an AOL chat rooms last century...and I got my friends AOL account terminated doing it. Before bulletin board forums like this even existed I was trolling the "alt.newsgroups"...I trolled people using web TV son, Im an OG Troll from way back. Youve never seen me troll bra. I dont troll IS, I troll support groups and drug synthesis forums, not this place where the content is so pathetic the OP might as well be trolling themselves, infact the reason I dont troll here is because I cant tell if anyone here is not just trolling themselves any way and if you read what the mods say in member review, you just have to ask yourself as a troll if the mods here arent just highly skilled and achieved trolls...No, I only troll serious discussions. I only troll shit where people are serious, focussed and emotional about the topic, so you never seen me troll bizzelniotch!As for my intuition, its fine, I call it like I see it, you are the one who misinterpreted my post...and as for your trolling dojo, if you ask ME nicely, I will meet with your master.[/QUOTE]

lol, good one

I don't see trolling as worthwhile though but still found humor in this.

Oh, so nuns use blackberries now? I remember seeing some at the bookstore, I guess given enough time even they would go hi-tech even if blackberries are so last decade.

#82
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947852]Cause its retarded and it doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Neither does your anger.

See, this is a circle that could go round and round...if you are so smart and sensible, think about it.

#83
[QUOTE=Sdboutlaw;949219]Neither does your anger.

See, this is a circle that could go round and round...if you are so smart and sensible, think about it.[/QUOTE]

Makes perfect sense to be frustrated with people who can't accept reality. :P

#84
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;949419]Makes perfect sense to be frustrated with people who can't accept reality. :P[/QUOTE]



Sure, GM, it does make a good rational of a sort.
but why let their attitude spoil your day?
Their shit is real to them, but you don't need to carry it around in your pocket, or do you???
They accept "their reality" by ignoring change, by
ignoring and being in denial about so many things
that are just not in their belief system. That is "Their" reality,

I came to terms with their denial some time ago and felt
it was detracting me from my path of helping those that
will listen. That are interested in learning. That are interested
in doing the work to help them accept change.

Many of us have felt your frustration, and still do.

For many years I had this serenity prayer
on a bronze plate on my key chain.

"Grant me the serenity
to accept the things I can not change . .
Courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference."

This has allowed me to help thousands of people
understand and even welcome unknown changes,
by accepting and developing their unknown psi-abilities.

Be in harmony,
be in beauty.
roger

#85
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;949419]Makes perfect sense to be frustrated with people who can't accept reality. :P[/QUOTE]

What is reality, and why are you letting them control yours?

#87
[QUOTE=sshenry;947429]And you're entitled to your view, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Heaven only knows that I have cause to feel bitter towards religion - and for a very long time I WAS bitter; bitter about what I'd gone through; bitter about those people still stuck in the 'trap' and I judged them. Oh man did I judge them! lol. Their blindness, their inability to break free even when they knew that they were in the wrong I wanted to shake them into wakfulness.

But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.[/QUOTE]

that is close to what..

they will be calling you a Shaman..

:biglaugh:

but isn't that it.. one who follows one's own path..

The smiley guy at the end of your posts is forever with me..

:D

#88
[QUOTE=sshenry;947429]
But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.[/QUOTE]

So can you say the same

for people who feel bitterly over religion?

Aren't they just having a different view?

And also just because your bitterness

was unproductive and only ate your own heart

is it impossible that the bitterness

of others may have a beneficial purpose

and serve more than it served you?

#90
[QUOTE=LH919;955865]So can you say the same

for people who feel bitterly over religion?

Aren't they just having a different view?

And also just because your bitterness

was unproductive and only ate your own heart

is it impossible that the bitterness

of others may have a beneficial purpose

and serve more than it served you?[/QUOTE]
No it's not the same. Religious people who are bitter are butthurt fairytale defenders. Non religious bitter ones hate the stupidity and defend reality.
Image

#91
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;956129]No it's not the same. Religious people who are bitter are butthurt fairytale defenders. Non religious bitter ones hate the stupidity and defend reality.
Image
[/QUOTE]


Im sorry

I tend not to care as much when

religious ppl are bitter

but it annoys me when

ppl claim it is somehow

bad or wrong for the non religious

to be bitter and that bitterness

is in no way productive...

because it most certainly is.

#93
Because it can be productive

bitterness is a feeling

feeling is just emotional energy

that energy can be channeled

into things to catalyze change.

Most people experience bitterness

from time to time.

Just as we bite down on the sour lemon

and our senses tell us to

change the taste, drink some water

feeling bitterness can be productive

and seerve us in this way.

but to pretend that bitterness is wrong, evil

or of lower consciousness and

suppress and ignore it

denying that we experience it

is when the problems arise from it.
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