#61
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947099]In case you felt like I was ignoring this,
Image
[/QUOTE]

Oh, if Mr Bean says its okay to criticize and judge, it MUST be okay!

Seriously, though you're completely missing the point. This isnt about being allowed to criticize everything but religion. This was about you judging another posters comments due to your judgment about religion and those who choose to follow it. You vs Them. Your attempt to play the victim because "no one" can criticize religion is baseless here.

#62
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947110]The choice affects the intellectual advancement of mankind.[/QUOTE]

Wooow. If this is what you believe, I truly feel for you. That attitude is why I can't marry my girlfriend in this state.

#63
Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.

human rights and the all too human wrongs

#65
human rights and the all too human wrongs

You believe you have the right to say anything? Why?

Those who haven't had formal philosophy classes or enough history often seem to confuse political liberties with the contemporary technology which makes it possible for anyone to say anything. There are informed opinions, based on experience, formal education, or even simply being well-read on a subject. Which are not the same as personal likes and dislikes.

Where does the idea of "rights" come from? It's a product of Enlightenment (1700's) political philosophies. Which are a product of the European idea of rationalism. Here's where it gets tricky. Because a nuanced explanation is impossible in paragraph form. Rationalism was itself derived from the work of medieval Catholic theologians who concluded from their observations of the natural world that there were physical laws. These laws could reveal the mind of the creator, and were therefore proper to study formally. Hence the rise of western universities.

Way back in the ancient world, arose a new religion. One not grounded in ethnicity (tribe) or locality, like the Egyptian or Greek deities. This new cult even had the gall to claim that slaves and women had souls, that all humans did. The educated ancients found such a notion silly. They knew peasants were little more than animals. But this each having a "soul" business easily morphed into the idea of individualism. We in the postmodern world are so used to it we forget individualism has a history.

From the US Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." To whom is it self-evident? To the assumed rational thinker. Check the level of current political discussion-- see much rationality? All men; well, not really. They meant not slaves, not women, not Indians, not even white men without property. Modern psychology has revealed the scope of the irrational. And the post Einstein and post Heisenberg world of relativity and uncertainty pretty much demolished the Enlightenment assumption of the objective observer separated from whatever is being observed.

SInce it's being argued here that the "Creator" part is irrelevant, on what are rights based? Political agreement, then. Which also means these rights are the arbitrary decisions of humans. Which can be voted away. Who is to say what is good, what is true, what is (a) right? Does might make right?

As for what is good for the evolution of humanity... that implies a teleology. That's a fancy word from theology meaning purpose towards some end. Which mainstream biological science denies. The doctrine is of randomlessness and purposelessness, of evolution based on random mutations.

There are several atheistic scientists who have written about religion as a human biological survival mechanism, thereby attempting to explain the prevalence of the phenomenon. Those approaches leave out the entire dimension of experience. A complex subject not included in any definition of religion as submission to weird dogmas, as ignorant tribal lore, or as mere personal belief without evidence.

An analogy. Part of what makes us human is the ability to enjoy art. By scientific analysis, a painting is a chunk of cloth with splotches of pigment. It is the artistic, the poetic, the imaginal, the mystical, and even the religious dimensions that give it meaning. Same for human life.

What's good for evolution also implies the ability to foresee the distant future. Plus the incredible intellect necessary to judge what the entire species needs for the next millennia. That in itself would be evidence of deity.

#66
Moose,

One of the biggest flaws as human is to see flaws of others but not of ourself. Before I question you, I should question myself, if what I say or do is the right thing or if what I do and say is any better than you. If not, than I am the same as you or worse than you, wouldn't this mean I'm just talking about myself when I point out all the negative about others? Believe me, I'm not talking or pointing finger at you, I am talking about my self awareness and how it has made me a happier person. Us human being has so many things about ourself that we do not understand how and why we think the way we do, this is why we should not judge others until we truly understand ourself. The interesting thing is those wiser with a better understanding of themself, usually don't judge others. I think it is smart to ask why to understand instead of pointing fingers. Flame me if you want, but I accept my flaws.

#67
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947187]Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.[/QUOTE]

This is just a terribly shortsighted and self contained view. However, it's a view I had myself when I was younger and trying to figure out why "HE" let bad things happen to me. First I looked for the truth within the confines of religion. Then, I got pissed and cast it aside and declared that if HE existed, he was the biggest bastard ever walking and I didn't need him anyway TYVM. I lived pretty angry for about five years until I woke up one day and realized that my anger was what was holding me back, not the religion. I then started walking my own path without letting Gods let down consume me further.

Looking back,the most important things anyone could have said to me is the following: religion has been hijacked and has been turned into a tool to turn people against each other if you are not one of them. Your anger does nothing but fuel that very hijacking. Your judgment is what they WANT. You're acting like a puppet on a string--dancing away even as you think you're bucking the system.

If I was told THAT when I was 15, I'd be in a much better place spiritually and emotionally now that I'm in my 30s. So with all the love in the world, cut the damned strings already and stop letting that rule you.

#68
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947187]Well whatever I'm justifying I don't feel guilty about lol. Its not a crime to judge people. Really everything you guys are saying are all things I've heard before and I just don't agree. Most of you anyway think I'm wrong for judging people, but your idea of wrong and mine are clearly different. I appreciate the effort you're putting into this but I really can't change my mind.Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm missing the point, I see the point you're making but I dont agree. I don't have blind faith and never will and I do judge people for being religious. And no its not okay cause Mr.Bean "said" it for all I know it could be anyone who said it, but i agree and have always felt that way. The picture just expresses my feelings behind the words.[/QUOTE]

And you're entitled to your view, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Heaven only knows that I have cause to feel bitter towards religion - and for a very long time I WAS bitter; bitter about what I'd gone through; bitter about those people still stuck in the 'trap' and I judged them. Oh man did I judge them! lol. Their blindness, their inability to break free even when they knew that they were in the wrong I wanted to shake them into wakfulness.

But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.

#69
alan: I see many flaws in myself I'm not denying that I am often judging others, I simply don't believe it is wrong.

sdlboutlaw: I don't believe god isn't real because bad things happen to me I believe he isn't real because the claim is improbable. Absolutely no amount of anything could change that. Not unless he appeared in front of my eyes..

#70
[QUOTE=sshenry;947429]And you're entitled to your view, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Heaven only knows that I have cause to feel bitter towards religion - and for a very long time I WAS bitter; bitter about what I'd gone through; bitter about those people still stuck in the 'trap' and I judged them. Oh man did I judge them! lol. Their blindness, their inability to break free even when they knew that they were in the wrong I wanted to shake them into wakfulness.

But i found - in the end - that the bitterness was doing nothing more than eating away at my own heart. Nowadays I'm able to simply allow that others have a different view - a different belief - and allow that for them it may be truth. When they are ready - they will wake up. Perhaps it will be today - or tomorrow - or twenty lifetimes from now. I can't force it on them. It will happen when they are ready for it to happen.[/QUOTE]

You're right it does make me bitter, however I do have a couple christian friends. I don't really know how they're any different than the others I've encountered but they just are. I realize that me just bitching doesn't change much there are many athiest's just as frustrated as I am ranting on and on about the same things I do yet religion is more common than athiesm. I guess it just feels good to call someone stupid once in awhile, I'm definately not ashamed of that though, Its part of the process.

#71
I think we all make judgements about ourselves and other people,
based on our experience, or the experience of others. There are
somethings as we judge, that in some societies it is considered
to be best to be unspoken. If you do speak of this unspeakable
in that society, you are being impolite, insulting everyone.

In this Indigo Society this type of behavior is considered not proper.
The Generic name we have for this improper behavior is "Trolling".

To tell someone directly, that their pathway is the wrong one,
because of historical president or any reason, including just
your opinion, is not proper behavior; in This Indigo Society.
It's crassness polarized many of us,
and effected our "Judgement" of you;
and ourselves . . . . .

But that is my problem not yours. I see the manner of your original
statement as a lesson of/for my learning. It was objectionable to me,
and I stopped to consider why. . . .
So I made an observation that in your voiced
expression of your hurt and anger, there are
lessons for all of us.

One of these lessons is: Be careful of becoming your reflection.

Be in harmony,
be in beauty.
roger

#72
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947541]alan: I see many flaws in myself I'm not denying that I am often judging others, I simply don't believe it is wrong.

sdlboutlaw: I don't believe god isn't real because bad things happen to me I believe he isn't real because the claim is improbable. Absolutely no amount of anything could change that. Not unless he appeared in front of my eyes..[/QUOTE]

If the claim is improbable, why be so angry? I am genuinely unable to understand that correlation...

#73
Im not sure i've ever met anyone so comfortable with their own beliefs that they couldn't change their point of view when they learn something new, The sad thing is that some don't want to learn anything new as that may mean having to change their beliefs.

#74
[QUOTE=Sdboutlaw;947660]If the claim is improbable, why be so angry? I am genuinely unable to understand that correlation...[/QUOTE]

Because so many people walk through life on their knees with their eyes closed. There are people in my neighborhood with signs in their yard saying "Pray for America" as if it matters if you just close your eyes and hope something will change. Nah pimp, you gotta do something prayer obviously doesn't help. If it "works" its coincidence

#77
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;947852]Cause its retarded and it doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Okay, if you want something smart and sensible, scroll down and read my nuanced reply at #58.

History, political philosophy, theology, and the teleological implications of an appeal to the future evolution of humanity. All on just one page.

#80
[QUOTE=GreenMoose;948071]I don't want something I already have.[/QUOTE]

I have reflected on some new information such that I've changed my mind. I now AGREE with you.

Here's why: IMO, it's the karma of the western world to develop the path of individualism. The ancient Greek philosophers advised "know thyself." The Hermeticists of Alexandria, Egypt said "as above, so below." In biblical language, "the kingdom of God is within."

The path of individualism means that an inborn trait within every person is the divine, the Absolute, the universe, perfection, or any other term you want. Therefore every human has the right to develop as is best for them. Yes, you DO HAVE and you DO KNOW already.

That's not to say personal likes are the same as the ideas of someone who actually has worked on something and knows about a subject by real experience. But political, social, economic, religious, educational, ethnic, and other authorities maintain their power and status by convincing the rest of us they know best. They don't. If they did, the world wouldn't be such a mess.

Consensus reality is about limitations. You do have something better already.

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