Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#51
yogidee wrote:Aside from the jokes, i want to thank you for this thread, all of these things need to re examined every now and then. Just  try not to overwhelm commenters with so many points at once, not everyone can download the same amount of info at a time enough to contribute a well thought out answer ;) so it's easier to leave a run DMC lyric instead lol  little by little hobbs
There is so much weird thing going with this lol
But i started to realize how bad it was actually on source nosis, at some point someone started to make a thread saying that speaking in tongue it's fine it's spiritual and all.
Already i was not having high idea of christianism at this time, but i was like ok if it's really what is wrote in the bible that we need to speak in tongue it's really completly idiotic, i was like ok if that's really what is wrote in it i'm going to get at war with the bible because that's really stupid lol
But then ok, i take the whole paragraph from the bible, actually it was saying right the opposite. It was saying that preaching should always be made intelligible, told in a language that the other can understand, and also on side note, that women should not be allowed to speak in a church at all.
It's there i was like ok, but wtf is those people who pretend to be christian, and in fact are just picking thing in the bible, and use it a sort of white card for going nut or being retarded irrational or moody, whereas in fact if anything bible say right the opposite of this.
Like ok cheneka tell me about being of light etc ok as christian i have to say that to me that doesn't make any sense, and asking the question of what it is, and it's the point i never get any answer, or being told i'm being confrontational or rude or something, with some kind of thing about love & hearth and all and that's about it.
It's clear at some point also all people with their faith & all that are supposed to be christian, at some point well no it's not christian at all, it's just their belief that are coming of either their parents, their church, or their imagination period and it only engage themselve to believe this, and it's not at all in the bible to behave like this and using all kind of fancy vocabulary and tong speech that are just confusing and not making sense, and at some point it just looks like all people who pretend to be christian it's what they are doing, there is still a pb somewhere lol
natural organic products

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#52
SeekerTim wrote:
h0bby1 wrote:
yogidee wrote:If you do a study of the term "Son of Man" in the Gospels you'll see that he didn't refer to himself most often as Son of God but as Son of Man, he did this often.
From that i could see in those debates, and there are plenty on youtube, the christian guy was never really able to point where in the bible it's told with certitude from the mouth of jesus that he is the son of god, it's implied by some people and the question is asked, but apparently it's never wrote down clearly black on white that jesus is the son of god.
Hello??????????????????? It"s in the Book

The John 3:16 verse is the most repeated verse and came form the JC, according to scripture. As such this is either the largest Lie or Truth of the centuries. I choose to believe it as a Truth. Was JC the greatest master/teacher or just another teacher? According to alot of Christians ALL other teachers do not even come close.  I do not believe so, but the question would be how close have the other great Avatars come? Who did as many miracles? Zoraster??? IDNK.

Son of Man is most often used. And as I recall I do not think "Only Son of God" was mentioned by JC in any other Gospel but John. I would need to check this.   

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.…

And by A=B=C if someone believes in the Holy Spirit do they all believe in JC by the associative law of Math???? Do they have to say Holy Spirit or is Spirit good enough. I can not believe that God is a Word Picker. God knows that Word Pickers have caused enough BS thru Time.

Tim
Peace
At the origin, god is the word no ? :) Word are kinda the bricks of the spirit in a way. Word it's language, knowledge, it caused also many great things.
The thing of trinity vs jesus, it's a bit what neo platonicist were a bit running into, to me it's all tied down to in what order of priority thing are defined, in the sense is the holy spirit the holy spirit because it's jesus, or is jesus jesus because of the presence of the holy spirit. It's might not seem important, but it change everything in the way to approach the whole question of what is the priority when reading a text or appreciating a scripture or anything, is it by it's quality to be holy, or because it's like the myth of jesus. In the first case it's seeing holyness as a quality of itself that is more universal, in the second case it's restricting it to it's manifestation in jesus and it change everything.
And it's not jesus who said it, it's a comment made on him by a third person, and even reading the context and applying it to it, when he say that he is not messiah but ahead of him, it cannot be considered a word of jesus. After it's the whole question of if people believe in gospel are paulist, johnist etc In the sense believing in an interpretation gave by a gospel of a third person.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#53
hI  Hobby1 dearest :)

Speaking personally as is all we can ever do, to me a being of light is a human angel of sorts. A human being that is not ignorant of spirit and that spirit speaks directly through, a human being without ego. A spirit that has far surpassed the human evolution but that has come here not only to teach unconditional love but to practice what he/she preaches.

Yes love has always been around but yet war still rages people forget about love. For centuries beings of light have been on this earth bringing light and love without even been noticed.

All the gifts of spirit are not all written in the bible, the gifts of spirit are many and varied and are used depending on the evolution of the soul to whom needs them.

There is no point giving a child a bicycle to ride if they have not learned to walk.......

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#54
i found this in the bible about gifts.

To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.


Even this kind of verses in term of metaphysics, it tend to say there is a quality of 'spirit' that is independent of its manifestation. And that its this quality of the spirit that matter the more rather than a particular form of expression it can take. And the keyword here being that it's 'good' as the quality it must have which totaly ring plato in itself, and so animated by the logos, etc.

And that it's this quality of good that need to be appreciated above the particular manifestation it take.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#55
But even this kind of verse, when it speaks of knowledge, wisdom, common good etc we might have our own view of what in represent today, but if one want to do this work to see what they could mean in the context of when & where he said this, and there are many reference to this in the bible, it still clearly point to some notion who were already present at that time, and had a clear meaning for the person he was saying it to, all those notion of knowledge, wisdom & common good they are not unique to the new testament, and all those notion were already studied hardcore by many philosophers for centuries, and this whole greek culture surround all christianism up to the father funder of catholic church.

They are not concept that are really taught in depth in the bible, those concept of good, knowledge, wisdom , even love etc, they are all words that are coming directly out of philosophy & judaism of that period of time and to me direct reference to this.

Almost to the point the whole bible on a litterature point of view can be considered as some kind of greek drama putting in place different character in different situation to teach something in the line of greek trajedies or dialogs. Like plato used socrates to teach something in the dialog, jesus is used in the same manner to show this path of wisdom in his reaction to different situation. To me it could be more accurate to see the bible under that angle rather than it being an accurate record of historical fact or being really all that about life & fact about jesus like an historian or an empirist would do.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#56
https://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/son.html

Idk after i'm not theologian, but it doesn't seem that clear what is meant in the bible on this topic.


Secondly, it should be made clear that Jesus was a man, a servant and a prophet, just as Muslims have always insisted and just as the Holy Injil claims the Son of God to have become. When the disciples of Jesus first met Jesus, they understood Him to be a man. How could they have understood otherwise? They had heard how Satan tempted Him. They saw Him hungry and weary. They knew Him in need of companionship and prayer. They saw Him weep. They heard Him in prayer and saw Him in action surrendering His will to the Father's will, claiming the Father's will to be His bread. His words: "The Father is greater than I" were intelligible to them. How else should they have understood? Or we, had we been with Him on earth?

Only after the disciples' association with Jesus had deepened, after they heard His words and witnessed His deeds, did they and others begin to wonder and ask questions about Him: "Who is this man?" "From where does He come?" They saw Him feed the multitudes, heal the sick, control nature, raise the dead. They heard Him forgive sins, they heard Him speak in an extraordinary manner about His purpose in coming, about His relation with the Temple, the Law and the prophets, about the love of God and His personal relationship with God. Even then, there were those who misinterpreted Him and His works, willfully or otherwise.

The disciples' understanding of both Jesus and His ministry was a gradual and at times a painful process. What He required of them to understand Him was not simply keen intellect but firm trust in God and obedience to His will, readiness for self-examination, repentance, and a change of mind and heart in the light of God's holiness and His holy Law, an openness to receive what He said about Himself, what He had done, what He was about to do, and the purpose of it all. True, Peter confessed Jesus to be the Messiah and Son of God, but immediately proceeded to contradict Jesus by denying that Jesus must suffer and die (Matthew 16:21,22), as if he had sharper insight into the will and ways of God than Jesus (John 12:1-7)! Women seemed to understand better (Mark 14:1-9). In brief, to understand Jesus is not simply to verbally confess Him, to admire and to applaud Him; it is to follow and obey Him.






Finally, let us briefly summarize the Biblical meaning of Jesus as the Son of God, bearing in mind that 1. "the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 2. the Holy Injil itself must be read to grasp the fuller meaning of Jesus' Sonship through His servanthood:

1. The unique Son of God is of the Father eternally; by Him God created and sustains the universe. As God's self-expression He is truly God.

2. Because God loved us, the unique Son of God entered time and space, was born of the Virgin Mary and was called Jesus the Messiah. As God's self-expression on earth in the form of man He is also truly human.

3. The Son shares the attributes of the Father; He is like Him in powerful works and loving self-giving.

4. The Son has been sent by/from the Father as His representative to carry out His work of revelation and salvation.

5. The Son is the Father's personal message, God expressing Himself and His love in a way that can be seen and heard and comprehended by humanity.

6. The Son serves the Father perfectly; the Father is also responsive to the will of the Son.

7. The Father and the Son are One in a unique relationship of complete mutuality between Master and Servant, sending One and sent One, revealed One and revealing One.

8. Those who believe in the unique Servant/Son sent by God, God's personal Good News" ("Evangel" or "Injil"), and who follow Him, can become His "brothers and "sisters"; they can become adopted, obedient children of God.

Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks
and honour and power and strength
be to our God forever and ever.
Amen!
(Revelation 7:12)

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#57
I agree, I do not think the bible is historical fact. I think Jesus the prophet was here most definitely but the bible was written long after and was written with the culture and customs of the time.

I think it is just a book to help us to begin a spiritual journey, like an ABC book you have to learn before you can begin to read.

Reading the bible is different from actually communicating with spirit and feeling spirit's warmth and love.

We all have a direct line it is just sometimes we think they have left the phone off the hook...........:) Most people don't listen to their thoughts or their inner guidance which is actually spirit communicating with them.

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#58
To me when i started to do this and reading the bible as some sort of platonic dialog, it can fit into this dimension, and it dig into all this kind of topic of the philosophy of the time, which in itself imply that there was necessarily some kind of sect or cult with an initiatic dimension existing before & after jesus, and in a way the new testament is more a sort of initiatc book, with lot of symbolism & happening in an abstract level, which in itself imply the same thing than socratic doctrine that there is some kind of universality in the soul and that the person writing it with an initiatic goal have the knowledge of this science to produce a certain effect through reflection/interpretation etc

All for me in the bible tend to indicate more this than saying that the essential is factual/historical information about jesus as a living man.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#60
h0bby1 wrote: And it's not jesus who said it, it's a comment made on him by a third person, and even reading the context and applying it to it, when he say that he is not messiah but ahead of him, it cannot be considered a word of jesus. After it's the whole question of if people believe in gospel are paulist, johnist etc In the sense believing in an interpretation gave by a gospel of a third person.
Hello... In any Bible where JC's words are in red you will see John 3;16 in red.
Tonques is a type of personal prayer which supercedes the intellect that alot of people trip over. 
The hierachy of Heaven and Jesus (and other masters) and the Bible is yet to be fully proven except in the minds of some Christians who interprete the words too make the Christian Faith the top of all faiths. Or the one way only way perception. I believe these people will be quite surprised when the words "many who are last will be first" are fullfilled.
How can Jesus have a personal relation with a billion people?  That would take a billion conscious minds. So this only makes any sense if the Holy Spirit/Spirit does it in some way I do not understand. In a billion different ways. 
Tim
Peace

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#61
To me to understand really god, need sub quantum accuracy words =) After it's possible surely to do all kind of fancy tricks and multiply bread etc :D

Not sure if it's words in itself, but more the meaning that must be kept accurate, the idea they convey or the effect it produce on the spirit.

In hebrew the words & alphabet are connected to the divine also more directly maybe, words and their meaning is connected to representation of god.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#62
What always strike me with this is the similarity there is between socrates & jesus, and the relation with platonicism & neo platonicism.

What jesus & socrates have in common is that they didn't write anything themselves, but they are known through the writing of other persons who put them in scene in order to convey their teaching or 'spirit', and they are also known to have a lot of influence in their time, and regarded as breakthrough regarding 'things of the spirit'.


One of the paradox of socrates is that in the same was said the wisest man of athena by the oracle, but in the same time saying he doesn't know anything, and he was not belonging to any school of though or philosophy, and not being dogmatic, and he was saying he was animated by his 'inner daemon' always remaining vague on this topic.

The other common point is they have both been killed by law, both more or less willingly, socrates said he was prefering to be killed by the law than living as a criminal, and jesus said he was seing it coming to and didn't do anything to avoid it, and their death both caused a serious shock in the faith of people in the law.

Most of what we know of socrates was wrote by plato, and from what i understood, socrates a bit plato 'teen hero' and it has affected him very deeply that socrates that he was seing more as a hero of wisedom against tyranny was killed by the law, and it's him who wrote most of what we know of socrates through dialogs.

And the thing that is always important for plato & socrates is that they are not being dogmatic, and always call to 'inner reflection', or well like socrates maieutics of 'know thyself' , and they were always very careful not to be dogmatic, but still not being nihilist. It can be seen easily in the growth of plato that more & more he take a less idealistic stance on thing thinking all political matter can be handled by reasonable dialog, and also the historical situation of the city of athena in greece was always reminding of the need also for 'guardians' and a form of order and law, but more digging around the quality of what should make this law fair & good.

Can seem a bit classical, but it's already a very important notion at the core of platonic ideas that there must alway be a notion of good above it's dogmatic or legal representation, and that it's something that can always be atained through the 'spirit', ideas, rather than from the world of the 5 senses, that all the concept of good, of justice, even the concept of images allegory & myths, all these are the concept that plato put in place through his dialog. All alongside with reflection on the 'one' , around the parmindes, and all the concept of trutth, idealism, utopias etc

In the whole christianism is also bathed from this, and jesus was coming also from this culture, and there are many reference to this made in the bible, lot of term used in the new testament for me they are direct reference to those concept developed in greek philosophy, there are many things in the bible that are clearly not of the 'world of 5 senses', and are directly philosophical concepts.

The influence of neo platonicism on the funding of catholic church, and the whole 'classical era', is also very strong, and the whole doctrine of 'immetarial truth', and 'material illusion' is rather also present in latter christianism, or that heaven(immaterial?) is the kindgom of god, and earth is not (more or less :D), but that it's kindgom will come on earth, and it's related to me with word become the flesh too, and how utopias should become reality.

Regarding there is finnally very few traces of jesus as a living person, maybe we have an old st suaire that is most likely a fake with his face on it, but beside this, and the account in the bible, there is not really much track of him, and he never really became an influent ruler, or someone who left much 'material trace', and regarding that the whole bible already deal with plenty of concept that are related to platonic philosophy, and plato did a bit the same with socrates, to put him in scene with other famous character of that time, but it's not to be taken as an historical recording of real conversation, but, something more imaged or that is supposed to reveal higher truth though the interpretation of the dialog.

I guess in large part because the catholic church was faced with the same kind of dilema in the west with the barbarian & all, they didn't have much even any book at all, or not having written language at all, even already the condition in which socrates & jesus were living next to this it was utopia and already they both have been killed too, and the catholic church always have the policy to form a well formed & selected elite, and then having this kind of pyramidal discipline from above, which is very similar to the idea of plato utopia.

When i said this to a girl who as doing study in sociology , specially in france with this whole atheistic out look on the seperation of church & state she was like ok .. But in the same time, even if there is this clash between republic & catholic church or religion in general since 500 year, to me to idea of republic in itself it's not so different in the platonic view of early catholic church too, and probably at that time there was more overlap between also stoics or people with more platonic school of philosophy around christian, philo of alexendria who knew jesus in his life told he was a wise person.

i will post more in this thread too =)

https://indigosociety.com/movies/psycho- ... 59114.html

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#63
h0bby1 wrote:
What jesus & socrates have in common is that they didn't write anything themselves, but they are known through the writing of other persons who put them in scene in order to convey their teaching or 'spirit', and they are also known to have a lot of influence in their time, and regarded as breakthrough regarding 'things of the spirit'.

Iphilosophy, there are many things in the bible that are clearly not of the 'world of 5 senses', and are directly philosophical concepts.

The influence of neo platonicism on the funding of catholic church, and the whole 'classical era', is also very strong, and the whole doctrine of 'immetarial truth', and 'material illusion' is rather also present in latter christianism, or that heaven(immaterial?) is the kindgom of god, and earth is not (more or less :D), but that it's kindgom will come on earth, and it's related to me with word become the flesh too, and how utopias should become reality.

Regarding there is finnally very few traces of jesus as a living person, maybe we have an old st suaire that is most likely a fake with his face on it, but beside this, and the account in the bible, there is not really much track of him, and he never really became an influent ruler, or someone who left much 'material trace', and regarding that the whole bible already deal with plenty of concept that are related to platonic philosophy, and plato did a bit the same with socrates, to put him in scene with other famous character of that time, but it's not to be taken as an historical recording of real conversation, but, something more imaged or that is supposed to reveal higher truth though the interpretation of the dialog.



https://indigosociety.com/movies/psycho- ... 59114.html
Hello .... I alway liked Socrates and the Socratic method has done well.
Jesus existince has been debated in some circles and from what I have read there is evidence on both sides. So the belief is a choice. From the shows that I have seen they usually favor his historical existence, But then you know I am biased.  I have watched/read the pro's and cons.  In either case the billions of people that respect the name of Jesus, both on this side and many of our beloved on the other side,  can not be denied. So help is available under the name and many Spiritulist will confirm.

There was a fellow on this site with a incedible story about obtaining a doc from the vatican supporting that he did not live. But even in the Bible itself, it talks about how the Romans started to discredit him right after his death. So the Document could have orginated wuth those Romans. Who Knows for sure.  Really incerdible experiences from this fellow. Not sure if I should name him or not.

The "word made flesh" is one of my favorite verses along the one about how (by this ye shall know my disciples,, they shall lay and hands on the sick and they shall recover) Not exact words.   I believe this applies to any and all faith. This is about the best proof that one speaks for God.  How thier prayers are answered in healing a sickness. I mean what else matters IMHO. Note, that this opinion is not biblical. the Bible raises the gift profecy and Apostlesship above the gift of healing. But at least its in the top 3. Actually LOVE is also  a better proof then the ability to heal.  According to many sources, including the Bible. I first wrote "the best proof, cause if ye need a healing a healing sure sound better then Love. Like if your starving,  ye need Food,  not a flower that says I love you.

I spent alot of time studying how the Kingdom may come to earth.  Many books on revelations.  Sort of alot of study for a big What IF. The verse about how the Kingdom cometh not with observation for the Kingdom is within" has helped me to stay grounded.
Tim
Peace

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#64
Even if it has influence among spiritualist it doesn't mean it is a real person necessarily, like manies icons idols or heroes either they are real person or myth can influence spiritualist and they are made for this in a way too, but it's more that if the bible has to be seen as 'life & fact about jesus' , or more some philosophy or gnostic text putting in scene the icon of jesus to demonstrate something.

For me this whole issue or word vs flesh & even whole satanism is something christianism inherited from plato who inherited it from pythagora, like since the beginning with the thing of square root 2 and common measure between square rectangle side of 1 and it's hypotenus showed that the monist/atomist view of mathematics of the pythagorean was flawed, they knew since the beginning that their saying that number are the measure of all thing was wrong, or imperfect, in the sense it's still very efficient to have an ideal overview of reality, but will always be an imperfect measure.

With plato & gnostics there is the same idea with idealism and utopia, that good is an idea, and truth a concept, but there will always be some inacuracy in it, which lead to the whole thing of gnostics seeing the cosmos & material life as the devil, and good & perfection can only be seen through idealism, but idealism will never represent the material world perfectly, or the material world will always contain some degree of imperfection.

On this i find this series psycho pass well done, because it show all the paradox of this utopia thinking, in a way i often see mathematician also having their view of the devil like what they explain as the devil proof, which is you can't proove it exist, but can't proove it doesn't exist either, in the context of the series where basically sibyl is the all seeing eye that represent the law, the devil is the things it cannot see and judge, rather than the criminal who are still part of sibil system and understood by it, but what sybil cannot see and control.In mathematics for pythagorean irrational numbers sure looked like the devil, just like plato demiurge looks like the devil too. In the sense the entities that are not part of the will of god if the logos & truth is to be associated with god.

In judaism i always have also the impression that the devil more have the sense of ignorance, like even darkness is like when we say something is 'obscure' it mean it not very clearly explained, obscurantism is lack of light in this sense of what allow to see the truth aka will of god at play in something.

The omni potent paradox also is a bit what is often the question, aka in psycho pass it's explained as if a being was omnipotent, could he create a stone that he cannot lift, in the context sibyl it mean, could sibyl system create a citizen that she cannot control and judge at all, in the sense of god, it mean could an omnipotent god create a being that he cannot control & understand himself, like the whole paradox of free will vs omnipotent god, in islam there is the idea that angels do not have free will and only obey god will, and free will only give choice to make good or bad, but finally whenever the free will go against god will there is some form of punishment. In that sense paradise is a place where angels rules, and there is no free will and no suffering.

With this job can also be interesting, in the sense when god send satan to make his life a misery, what does job still need to love in that case, he still love good and keep faith, but still should he be loving the misery inflicted to him by satan, even if finally satan is also part of god will.

But in this whole idea of utopia, there is always the side that it's not something "natural" in the strict sense of the term, like also i believe this is shared by alchemist/hermetist too, that perfection is something that is not found in nature but that nature need to be perfected in order to reach idealistic idea, or refined in case of alchemist to either purify metal or make some kind of potion or remedy out of raw minerals , but that there is always a degree of imperfection in nature, that there will always be some kind of conflict between what is good & perfect and the way the world works, and in a platonic or gnostic view, the body & world of 5 senses is still mostly part of this imperfect material world, but there is the idea it can be turned into a temple too, like stones can be made into a church with the good plan & architectural model. 

But the plan with never represent accurately what is going on, no more than pythagorean mathematics are totally perfect, or plato utopia, and there is also always a need for some socrates or some people of free will who test this law to make it better, and can also critics it even if ultimately they still submit to it in last resort, in psycho pass there is also this whole idea that the utopic system is able to improve itself, and apply it's own judgment to itself which it cannot do all by itself following a predefined rigid pattern. And what matter is more this ability to 'see imperfections' that is the true engine of utopia rather than blindly following any law just because it's the law, but seeing what make the law just or not as the main principle rather than the dogma itself. Like following the law is a little bit like looking at the finger and missing the moon, in islam it's something that is more clearly defined too with esotery branch like sufism and exoteric branch like justice & law.

This thing of healing is also a thing i pondered for a while, because in the way the whole goal of utopia & law to begin with is to avoid to need healing, in utopia everyone is healthy, there is no prison, no hospitals, and everyone follow the law & everyone is happy, but then in a way the whole 'spiritual mission' can be seen in either preventing people to get hurt, which is often the justification for using violence against violence, this whole paradox is also very well demonstrated in psycho pass, where it show any person can easily be made violent in certain circumstances, but for this to happen, there must exist an agent external to sybil a sort of 'devil' that is not controlled by sibil system who make the persons criminal. And in that the hero always try to lower their criminal coefficient rather than pressing the trigger like a machine because they are too dangerous. 

In the context of the series where this criminal coeficient is quite what could fit in being an angel aka following sibil law, lowering this criminal coeficient is equivalent to bring people closer to good, and healing is in large part this too, but this whole thing of "miraculous healing' look too me something that is very inspired from shamanism too, and 'working with spirit' in order to heal a person, which is removing devils that make them away from god. But also that it must be done with a real understanding of what is going on, rather than using some kind of magic or confused 'obscurantist' belief too, or it's believing jesus didn't know what he was doing and had no certitude about the outcome of its miracle.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#65
Hi

I do not think utopia is to be found in the physical world as long as there is physical there will be wants, needs desires and pain and suffering. Physical pain I believe is there to prevent us from hurting ourselves. If we could not feel pain, when we burn ourselves etc etc our physical body would not last very long :) Mental pain and suffering is more because of loss or want or desire of something or someone.

With no physical wants, needs or desires what is left? there would be no point in being physical, it is I believe what keeps us going in this world at times. I think healing, is healing the spirit and coming from spirit.

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#67
Did Jesus exist as a man on this earth? I do not know. There are such things as master spirits that help us on this earth with our spiritual evolution........from the ethereal. I have not met one on this earth :) If he did then, I would think he was the greatest spiritual channel that ever walked this earth. Human beings do not have the power to heal or create miracles, spirit does. :)

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#69
Hi. As a churchgoer all my life, and we have study groups and Sunday school for the kids. I want to say that I am not a Catholic. I am in the choir though. We visit other churches and discuss religious issues of an afternoon. I find that some folks take the Bible a little too literally for my taste. It has been translated and the context of some of the text is only inferred because we dont get the literal meaning. Something of it has been lost. So we have to kinda guess a bit. I dont know much about Socrates, but I do know that because neither him nor Jesus wrote stuff down doesnt make them similar, l spend most times talking to everyone, and I cant compare to either of those guys by a million miles, Hobby1.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#70
Sherrybee wrote:Hi. As a churchgoer all my life, and we have study groups and Sunday school for the kids. I want to say that I am not a Catholic. I am in the choir though. We visit other churches and discuss religious issues of an afternoon. I find that some folks take the Bible a little too literally for my taste. It has been translated and the context of some of the text is only inferred because we dont get the literal meaning. Something of it has been lost. So we have to kinda guess a bit. I dont know much about Socrates, but I do know that because neither him nor Jesus wrote stuff down doesnt make them similar, l spend most times talking to everyone, and I cant compare to either of those guys by a million miles, Hobby1.
To me there is lot of similarity between the two, but i guess i'd say if you have your view of christian from churches, it won't give you that idea at all, but there is lot of similarity actually, not saying they are the same person, or that they have the same teaching, but the way their myth is conveyed, the way the bible is wrote, and even large part of the message, it's still very close to platonicism principle, and plato is the one who related the story of socrates through myth like the bible is the story of jesus through a myth, but it does have a philosophic or esoteric meaning to it too, just like socrate as we know it is through myth wrote by plato who can also be said to have some esoteric tone in the sense the interest of it is not litterally reading the words. There are still debates even in academic scholar to say if plato really confirm this or that philosophical view, cause it's dialogs, often end in aporia or using peotry & image or myth a lot too.

What you say about the bible about we have to guess a bit, all of what we know of socrates through plato it's same thing, need to interpret and guess a bit to really understand what the socrates of plato is about. And neo platonicism is all over in latter christianism up to the classical era. Jesus & socrates also both died for being sort of agitator or threatening the most powerful by just words, promoting some kind of concept of wisdom , and challenging the authority of the law.

But yes i said in the OP and some other post, the catholic church become about a whole different thing, and most people today that claim themselve as christian i'm not sure they have real clue of anything except following the pope, waiting for mircale in awe and unconditional love, and being pro life, anti immigration, homo phobic, islamophobic, and what's not phobic lol

But i also studied lot of the two, actually the guy who teach me has a license in philosophy, so he learned socrates & plato at school, and have deep foot in esoteric circle too, and studied a lot the bible, if the bible is to be interpreted as a philosophical text, and many philosophy of that time come in form of myth, dialogs, dramas, not the same form than like natural science today, or philosophy of the light century, it would still strangely confirm most of the 'key marker' you would expect to find in a platonic/socratic kind of writing.

Socrates wisest man of athenes, a book that talk about philosophical topic who make mention of wisdom rather often born in the same country, even most likely in the same language & culture in greek, couldn't ignore this.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#71
But about this thing of healing & love, because it's a thing that i came across over and over in various kind of research, either they are in the west or east or in antiquity or light century, there is always this relation between health, vital energy, and symbolized by the snake.

After it's more snake symbolism or even now with neurology and the reptilian complex in the brain it's even more tangible, but this symbol of snake is found in hinduism with kundalini & the hermetic symbol of caduceus, which is as far as i understand it a doctrine that is aiming at understanding thing in order to improve them, there is large influence of this within free masonry too with hermetic orders, and what is associated with the snake is vitality, and also protection , and in the bible the snake is always refered to as wise, in that sense of knowing about life and how to preserve vital system, even at the price of another life which is what life is about too, some would say cannot live without love, but snake do live without love, in a way love in not essential to life, security & food is. In that sense love without wisdom, or knowledge of how to preserve life, both by self protection & healing or 'self development', growth etc, is always have tone of foolish love that really don't know what good it really does if it's priority it's not in a way the improvment and preservation of life system, which is more or less what the snake symbolize a bit in many tradition. Wise as snake gentle as a dove, it mean snake for the part about wisdom of life preservation, and dove for the part about not attacking other unless it's necessary under the command of wisdom & life preservation. Even if the pope walk on the tail of snake most likely the snake will still bite him, no matter how holly he is.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#72
Hi,

Ah the kundalini. The snake power slithering up the spine and awakening us to what we really are.

I say about humans not being able to heal and perform miracles because I believe it all passes through us from the ethereal, as I don't believe energy is mass or dense. I think physical energy is an optical illusion.

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#73
cheeneka wrote:Hi,

Ah the kundalini. The snake power slithering up the spine and awakening us to what we really are.
Well i'm not sure it's all that simple either. But it's related to a concept of vital energy and development of vital energy, and consciousness is also made of vital energy, it's a system to represent vital functions a bit, but within hinduism it's really hard to understand their concept in detail, but in eastern traditional medecine this whole concept of vital energy is still central to health, and not only in the sense of curing disease & sickness either, but also preventing them.
cheeneka wrote:I say about humans not being able to heal and perform miracles because I believe it all passes through us from the ethereal, as I don't believe energy is mass or dense. I think physical energy is an optical illusion.

LOve cheeneka x
so health is not a physical matter ? You can smash a hammer in someone face it's ok it's just an optical illusion it's just physical energy as long is it's all fine the ethereal ? :)

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#74
LOL let there be no one hitting anyone with a hammer.....:)

Chi energy hobby1, spiritual energy that we sometimes cannot access without the kundalini awakening. When the conscious becomes aware of the unconscious. When we become aware of the human and the full spirit while in human form.

I know we feel if we are hurt physically we would have to or as I said before our body would not last very long. I don't have your brilliant mind to articulate an experience, all I can tell you is that I have seen physical energy disappear in front of my very eyes....:) and no there were no drugs involved. :)

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#75
cheeneka wrote:LOL let there be no one hitting anyone with a hammer.....:)
Well now day you know ... lol It happen more often than we think lol
cheeneka wrote:Chi energy hobby1, spiritual energy that we sometimes cannot access without the kundalini awakening. When the conscious becomes aware of the unconscious. When we become aware of the human and the full spirit while in human form.
Yes this ok, but still in all tradition, even in freud, even in neurology, the subconscious & unconscious it has to do with physical function, instinct, and in particular survival instinct, even in kundalini it's the root chakra, and it's somehow the axis around which all resolve , also where the kundalini shakti is coiled, but in itself its static and cannot be influenced by will, it's the base vital function if they are not met the rest doesn't exist. And it has lot to with security, survival, and the reptilian cortex in the brain, it's represented as a snake too, but the snake is used also in plenty of tradition it's hard to really draw general conclusion on this, but in the bible it's to me also what is related to being wise as a snake, and it's also something without which neither healing is possible or love really make sense.

Healing to me is at best a restorative/protective thing, more than about curing sickness.
cheeneka wrote:I know we feel if we are hurt physically we would have to or as I said before our body would not last very long. I don't have your brilliant mind to articulate an experience, all I can tell you is that I have seen physical energy disappear in front of my very eyes....:) and no there were no drugs involved. :)

LOve cheeneka x
Physical energy disapear how that ? lol What do you call physical energy already lol

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#76
The snake how it sheds it's skin and grows another one.....renewal. The kundalini energy is a similar thing it somehow changes your DNA and instead of just having blood running through your veins, it is love also pumping through your veins awakening all chakras at once and at the same time expanding consciousness. Not for the faint hearted I would think :)

The energy is pure spirit and is capable of healing, miracles and anything else that spirit is capable of. A lot of people experiencing an awakening end up having a psychosis because spiritual energy vibrates at a higher pace and everything in the mind speeds up also. Like if your mind is now working at 10 mph after an awakening it works at 100mph. It would take a lot of time to adjust to this.

It has happened a few times hobby1 where I am sitting in front of someone and they just seem to fade away and all I am perceiving is auric energy. Thought I was hallucinating the first time it happened.....LOL :)

LOve cheeneka x

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#77
Hi. I believe that the teachings of Jesus as a living breathing man who talked and preached his words, are the the way to follow forwards in my life. Its how you feel and act yourself as a living breathing person that makes a difference. That is what he was saying more than anything, to live your life as you mean to be a good person. Its no good saying that quote was wrong because ABC. Its about being, and more-being good. The ideas about how you get to Heaven, through Jesus, is not walking through a person literally. Its about being alive how you feel good. God and good, they always said at school. were 2 words only an 'o' apart.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#78
Yes i believe it 's globally the idea, but it's where this whole principle of good, it's not something you can really grasp through 5 senses, it's something that is necessarily an abstract concept. And the idea as that to be a good person, it need the good definition of what is good, and being able to apply this in your behavior, but that it's still something that start up as words or idea, even in freud there is this idea of the 'super ID' etc, that still the root of what can affect the spirit it's idea, words, and in a way that's what philosophy is about. It's not something that is 'natural' or come from the flesh or material world to begin with, but from idea & word.

Even this research of feeling good, to me it more look like budhism that christianism, in christianism there is still often a dimension of ascetism & austerity, even in job it can show feeling good is not necessarily the only purpose of faith, or seing faith as some kind of delusion to use as psychological crutch to avoid to face reality, i believe specially in christianism there is much more a dimension of truth & higher purpose, even of politics, and sacrifice, rather than about feeling good as the ultimate purpose of life or faith.

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#79
cheeneka wrote:The snake how it sheds it's skin and grows another one.....renewal. The kundalini energy is a similar thing it somehow changes your DNA and instead of just having blood running through your veins, it is love also pumping through your veins awakening all chakras at once and at the same time expanding consciousness. Not for the faint hearted I would think :)

The energy is pure spirit and is capable of healing, miracles and anything else that spirit is capable of. A lot of people experiencing an awakening end up having a psychosis because spiritual energy vibrates at a higher pace and everything in the mind speeds up also. Like if your mind is now working at 10 mph after an awakening it works at 100mph. It would take a lot of time to adjust to this.
Oki i know this stuff lol Not sure about the dna bits though lol

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#80
But this thing of idea of good, it's something that is totally coined by plato. This whole idea of immanent good really search 'idea of good', you will see it all come down to plato this definition of god & the light, and he is also the one who wrote most of what we know of socrates. So for me it's bit harsh to really enter this kind of clash between republic & catholic church, science & religion, logic & spirituality, really the two it's in the bottom very close origin if not identical line of philosophy. For me there is nothing in the bible who would really clash with plato or socrates idea etc and they are still very concomitant culturally & geographically ..

Re: Jesus & the original Christianity

#81
Jesus the Christ is the personified spirit, Adam is the first projected image(I am)made from dust of the earth (subconscious)....All the teachings as far as Summeria to Krishna to Jesus...in these ull find the one born of a virgin,the 3that bear witness,sun,moon,stars. 4 rivers.... Solstice chart is the sun on the cross divided into 4 ....u know The Son on the cross divided into 4 the 4th having 7 powers....humm 7 days of the week..its about the one within the kingdom...its us the observer/ operator...self and mind together an active soul. Its the heat of desire,eye of the Sun/Son God when focused on becomes the creator. We R the Fathers Or fathers of what create within...what seeds r u focusing ur heat on to grow within ur soil???? Left or right?? This is what all the teachings are about controling the spiritual universe that is within,being one with ur inner worlds...the teachings r spiritual not physical.....u shall leave thy Father  n thy Mother n cleave to ur wife....were u born with a partner??? Physically???? No....but spiritually. YES!!! UR MIND.....
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