Why is it?

#1
Why is it Jesus spelled out some of his tenants very clearly in the gospels, and throughout all of history for the most part Christians have done the opposite?

He said "Judge not, lest you be judge. Forgive, and you will be forgiven"
He said, "If somebody asks for your coat, give him your cloak as well."
He said "Love your enemies."

But the church and church people so much throughout all of history have done just the opposite.

Jeesh, turn on the religious radios these days it is all about waging war in court battles, legislating against gays, demonizing muslims. Not a SINGLE word about love or forgiveness (apart from the occasional pat phrase "hate the sin love the sinner" which is usually a qualificaiton in the middle of their antagonistic rants).

It' not just the modern times. There have been numerous reforms throughotu history, all of them aspiring, all of them falling woefully short and leading in the wrong direction or some other distraction once again.

and not just christians. so many cults have formed too, so many utopias fallen.

What is it with people?

#2
Thank you Tree Wyrm for your thoughtful introflective post. So much truth and wisdom and perception in them.

There are so many stampedes in society, even the smartest cattle can get swept up in it. What jesus taught was meant to be an antidote to the stampedes, and also a sobering way to dust oneself off after getting swept into a stampede. On the individual level it is the freedom to realize that at every moment we have a choice, and to stand boldly and sometimes dangeorusly for that choice.

About following the bible.... the thing is they don't even go 'by the book'. They get distracted by stampedes and bent off track. Turn on the radio today in America and it seems on the Chrisian stations that christianity is synonymous with opposing gay marriage. Why? The bible says nothing about marriage laws. At the time the Bible was written, I don't even think marriage was a religious thing. The bible says of the laws turn neither to the left nor the right. the law says to stone men who have sex with other men. It says nothing about stoning women who sleep with other women. It says nothing about don't stone them but don't allow them to marry. Most christians seem to agree it is not okay to stone men who have sex with other men any more (which is fine with me that they don't stone them). But if they stop the stoning, why do they then attack the marriage? I know men who truly love each other, put their careers on hold to be with each other in dire need. Christians never even attempt to dialog on that level. I am saying this as only one example of the many inconsistencies. It is not truly Jesus and not truly the Bible and not truly God that these vocal set-a-bad-example radio Christians are following, but their own cultural stampede. This kind of off-track bickering began in the book of Acts. Paul had to deal with it. Peter had to deal with it. Why don't Christians actually read their book cover to cover and think about the message of their so-called leader Jesus and do a reality check on their assumptions and then do the right thing?

Some things God allegedly sent prophets to complain about on a regular basis

Justice for the widows and orphans.
Equal non corrupt justice for both the rich and the poor.
Observing the sabbath rest both for oneself and one's servants.
idolotry especially eating rasin cakes dancing under trees or sacrificing children -- god threatened drought and sterile cattle for doing those things.

But nobody speaks out against working on the sabbath any more. They never speak out against poverty or orphans or widows or injustice. just mostly about abortion and muslims and homosexuals and sometimes against evolution or career women. At least they've shut up about the flat earth already.

hypocrites

#3
LOL, Im adding that to my christmas wish list..dancing raisin cakes under a tree haha. I am so gonna eat them all and bah humbug to the children thay cant have any!

Idk, said sumthin about if a mans ass lives in a whole its ok to werk it out. Juss gotta learn to twerkk things in your favor remembering that all religion is to agree with the group as to what is moreal and acceptable despite contradictions.

In my cult there are 2 rules, we rock this world and there are no rules. See that way its all good right?

#4
Hello..... What is with people who continue to repeat the same mistakes and sins thru history???? One simple answer is people are not perfect. But that's way too simple. How about the stress of daily life and paying the bills is that a good excuse for some mess ups? When people are stressed or in pain the patience threshold is lower and more conflicts and hate or frustration happens. But that's an excuse. At least a partial factor.

So if some one has a goal to be good but falls short they should at least get a few more points then the people that have no goal but the law of Self. And when do we redeem those points for all the good intentions that where not always met? To the laws of the universe and God of course. But if people 100% create thier own reality then they can create around those laws. Which they can do for awhile till it catches up with the Truth of universal laws that have been forever and will be forever. But who has proof of all these laws? We have heard them all, but where is the evidence? Here and there.

If we where perfect would we still be here? And when someone gets perfect do they hang around or take off? Like when JC said 'How long must I bear this generation". In 2000 years its mostlly been his mother Mary that's done most of the 3D visiting. But The holy Spirit is always there. even if its not always felt. That's a hard one to swallow.

How can we have heaven on earth if people keep messing up? Good questions.

Some may say that Christians use Forgiveness as a free gift to continue to mess up. ?? Some probally do.

Is free will worth It??????????????? Yes, I guess so. Prettty Sure it is.

Tim
Peace

#5
That's a good summary-comprehensive analysis there, Seeker Time. There's some interesting insight in some of the epistles of Paul talking along those same lines, as the First Believers sought to work out what it meant. And the parable of Jesus about the farmer sowing the seed. Some fell in shallow soil, some fell among thorns.... when I was a kid I was sad the farmer was so careless with his seeds. But if you pay attention to when Jesus explains that Parabable the seeds are not people. The seeds are the Word of God, or the teachings of Jesus about foregiveness and non judgment and love and all. We the people are the Soil. If we are superficial how we handle it, the Word will produce no true fruit. If we let the cares and troubles (thorns) of life choke us, we will not be 'productive'. If we carefully cultivate our 'soil' our mind, intent, will, etc, then we can enter "the Kingdom of God". Which did not mean like scoring points for Heaven or the afterlife judgment thing it was something altogether other. The bliss that could be ever-present. Eastern philosophy/spiritual meditations in many way fall along similar lines, albiet maybe with less love and more dispassion -- the east focused more on mood and tone than on inter-relationships.

At its best foregiveness is not a get-out-of-jail free card. It's more like a circuit breaker so that the community can put the past aside and move on, hopefully with re-established relationships and better harmony between people.

How then do we discipline not just an individual on mood but an entire community on healthy inter-relations? Does there need to be a structure of check-in accountability? That would require a checker and lead to a dominator and run the risk then of power-politics creeping in. Some small communities and family clans farmers maybe could accomplish this, but it seems to require constant vigil and mindfullness and responsibility of all concerned. So few get started and so few stay.

#7
MYSTIKDRAGON wrote:TreeWyrm,you said hate gives..? When it does not,it takes.
It would seem that way on the surface, or it is that way when hate is used to negative effect.
I percieve hate as a primal driving force that needs to express itself outwardly in contempt of the current reality, the yang, to say that one does not like the current situation and acts to change it is an expression of hate.
I percieve love as yin, a wanting desire, to take something into oneself or to become one with something or someone, to want to benefit someone else or oneself passively without acting outwardly.

Here is an example i hope illuminates the misunderstanding of love and hate :
"I love listening to my favorite song"
vs
"I hate waiting to hear my favorite song played on the radio so i bought the song"

#8
why people do as they do?? [FONT=&quot]The Divided Mind[/FONT]






[FONT=&quot]Ego is the Self’s perception of its identity. In other words, what the Self believes itself to be. A person acts according to what they believe they are.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A small child perceives only its true identity. It is so familiar with its super ego that it does not question the nature of itself. It simply accepts that it is not a material thing.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alter egos, i.e. alternate egos, are false egos that are learned as the child interacts with the world, and with people who have become unfamiliar with their super ego, i.e. their True Self.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is when a child first sees the reflection of its physical body, such as in ‘the rouge test’, that it is presented with the illusion that it is the physical body. To a child who has very little knowledge, understanding and reasoning skills, the illusion is very powerful, and even more so when encouraged to accept the illusion.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Before a small child sees the reflection of its physical body for the first time, it feels hidden and unseen, except through its eyes, only then does the child think that it is seen. It’s quite funny how a small child can cover its eyes with its hands and believe that it can’t be seen.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A small child has only one ego, one perception of its identity, its true identity,and because of this it has an undivided mind. This is why Jesus said, ‘you must become like little children’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the child is overcome by the illusion that it is its physical body, another ego is formed, one that is false yet seems real, but so does the Super ego. Now the child has two egos, two perceptions of its identity, and the child’s peace is lost as its mind becomes divided.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The loss of recognition of a soul's true nature as a spiritual being, and the formation of another identity, results in a split personality; that is to say, two distinct and opposing personalities. It is like being two distinct and different people, each taking its turn to rule, hence two masters to serve; one inherently good (the True Self), and one inherently sinful (the false Self). This is why Jesus said, ‘You cannot serve two masters’. (You cannot serve the true Self and the false Self).This is why a person can sin and then feel sorrow and shame for sinning. In Truth, you can only serve one master at a time, and while you are serving one, you are in denial of the other. Those who Love others are serving their Super ego, those who care only for their own needs are serving their false ego.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These perceptions of the Self’s identities reside outside of the Self in the mind, and they are referred to as the Self’s children because they were created by the Self. In Genesis they were called Kane and Abel, the children of Adam and Eve, (Adam the Self and Eve the mind), but before we consider the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis, I want you to consider the nature of the god and the doctrines that are being taught by those of religions such as; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You should also consider what their interpretations of the scriptures are based on. Is it their Super ego or their false ego that is responsible for their interpretations? Are they based on spirituality or materiality?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Father of a spiritual being is naturally a spiritual being.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Father of a physical being is naturally a physical being.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A spiritual being relies on spiritual things for its life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A physical being relies on material things for its life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Does God rely on material things for His life?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you had no mind, what would you be aware of?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is mind a material thing; is it made of atoms?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are thoughts and awareness made of atoms?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is God a physical being?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is Heaven a material place containing material things?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is the nature of the Father that is taught by the keepers of the scriptures?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Has that father been reasoned by the Super ego (the Self-identity as a spiritual being? Or has it been reasoned by the false ego (the Self-identity as a physical being?)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam have served only to reinforce the belief that we are physical beings that serve only the false ego. Are they leading you to God or away from God? Are they leading you towards knowing your true Self or away from your true Self? They are blind to the spirit and therefore can teach only of material things. How then can they interpret the Word of God?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]‘I AM THAT I AM’ does not mean ‘I am a physical being’. How small they make God when they teach that he came down to Moses as a physical being that hid on a mountain from the rest of the world. How like themselves they make their god; angry, vengeful, jealous, possessive, and a murderer of his children.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Truth remains in the Bible, hidden from the false ego, and Jesus was killed for revealing it, and their blindness.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even now their religions, created by the false ego, are being replaced by Atheistic materialism and Darwinism, which serve only the false ego without the need for a God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now for the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The story of Adam and Eve is the revelation of the birth of every soul, yours included.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Garden of Eden is a place set aside in Heaven where each of us were prepared for our journey to perfection. It is the place where we as spiritual beings (children of our Father), first experienced life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Every spiritual being is capable of awareness, and so to become aware, requires something to be aware of. When we are aware of something we are experiencing life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When we are not aware of anything, such as when in dreamless sleep, we are not experiencing life, or anything else.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]LIFE IS THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING AWARE OF SOMETHING[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]CONSCIOUSNESS IS THE STATE OF BEING AWARE[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is through the things that exist in the mind that we experience life. The mind exists between the Self and all that is outside of the mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Self exists within the mind[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The mind is the Self’s domain[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]THE MIND IS REQUIRED TO EXPERIENCE LIFE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even our Father has a mind, it is called Heaven[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now back to the Garden of Eden.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Self existed before it experienced life; it was once a part of our Father.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Self as a spiritual being first experienced life in the Garden of Eden. It had no mind of its own, but instead, shared a part of the Father’s mind, a part set aside east of Eden.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eden is the place that contains the Father’s secret knowledge; the Absolute Truth yet to be learned by the Father’s new born children.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is our Father’s mind (Heaven) that is the Mother of us all, for she delivered us into life, into awareness.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The word ‘God’ refers to Father (the first and supreme spiritual being) and Mother (the first and supreme spiritual beings mind). It is in this image that we are made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Love of a child cannot be commanded or forced. If it is to be of any worth then it must be given of the free will. It must be a choice made in the absence of fear or deceit, (which is the concealment of Truth).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you Love someone let them go, if they Love you they will return.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was in the Garden that the Self was given its own personal domain to rule, its own piece of Heaven; its mind. It is known as Eve, your life journey companion. This is the true meaning of leaving your Father and Mother and cleaving to your wife. Together you are a soul.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If it were not so then your earthly Father and Mother would be God, and you would not be able to experience life without an earthly wife.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now to the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree they were naked, they had nothing to hide.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Every soul was meant to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Without such knowledge a soul would be without choice, and free will would not be of any use, because the soul would be left with no choice other than to conform. If a soul didn’t know wrong then how would it know that right is right?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The serpent represents desire:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was the desire for knowledge that tempted Adam through his mind (Eve). It was the mind that received it first and then gave it to Adam (the Self).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The next part of God’s plan was to send each soul to a place separated from Heaven so that they could learn for themselves the difference between good and evil, a place where they could learn for themselves, the Truth, and to Love each other, a place where they could become perfected by their own will. We know this place as the world, a part of the material Universe, a place from where God cannot be seen. It is here alone that evil is permitted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It was only when Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree that they had something to hide. It was the knowledge of evil that they were ashamed of.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The skins that God gave us to cover us are our physical bodies.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The children of Adam and Eve are our egos, i.e. our super ego which is our identity as a spiritual being, and our false identity as a physical being. They are referred to as Kane (the physical identity) and Abel (the true spiritual identity).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Kane killed Abel by taking away his true identity. This is why it was said, ‘two will lie on a bed and one will die and the other will live’.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To experience life as Kane is to experience death, because the flesh has no life. To experience life as Kane is to experience an illusion, one that makes the Self believe that its life is dependent on the material world and upon the flesh.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Each ego, each Self-identity requires its own desires, its own state of mind, beliefs and reasonings. And therefore the Self that has two egos experiences two states of consciousness. Only one state can be experienced at a time, only one Self-identity can rule at a time. Whichever one is chosen becomes the master the ruler for its duration.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The mind becomes a divided Kingdom ruled by two masters, each taking its turn to rule, each fighting for complete domination, and there is the cause of the loss of peace in the mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This endless conflict can only be ended when the Self comes to know its true Self. Who is winning in your life, Kane or Abel?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you are still spiritually aware and still have Love and seek Truth, you must become your own master; you must come to know your True Self.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Each day you battle against Kane and the world, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and feel ashamed. Isn’t it time that you ended this battle? Isn’t it time to commit yourself to one way, to being the only master of your domain (mind)? In the end there can be only one, let it be your True Self, a child of God. Only then will you find peace, and make yourself worthy of Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A house set against itself cannot stand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is your mind that is a temple; make your True Self the cornerstone.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Kingdom is within you, make it as the Father’s, undivided, a place of Love and Truth. It is then that your light will shine and the Father will reveal himself to you, and your Love will be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your father waits patiently while your will is done. He understands and always Loves you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am from the undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father to share with you, my family.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Love and peace[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]William[/FONT]Gospel of Thomas fully interpreted

#9
clearblue;"That's a good summary-comprehensive analysis there, Seeker Time. There's some interesting insight in some of the epistles of Paul talking along those same lines, as the First Believers sought to work out what it meant. And the parable of Jesus about the farmer sowing the seed. Some fell in shallow soil, some fell among thorns.... when I was a kid I was sad the farmer was so careless with his seeds. But if you pay attention to when Jesus explains that Parabable the seeds are not people. The seeds are the Word of God, or the teachings of Jesus about foregiveness and non judgment and love and all. We the people are the Soil. If we are superficial how we handle it, the Word will produce no true fruit. If we let the cares and troubles (thorns) of life choke us, we will not be 'productive'. If we carefully cultivate our 'soil' our mind, intent, will, etc, then we can enter "the Kingdom of God". Which did not mean like scoring points for Heaven or the afterlife judgment thing it was something altogether other. The bliss that could be ever-present. Eastern philosophy/spiritual meditations in many way fall along similar lines, albiet maybe with less love and more dispassion -- the east focused more on mood and tone than on inter-relationships.

At its best foregiveness is not a get-out-of-jail free card. It's more like a circuit breaker so that the community can put the past aside and move on, hopefully with re-established relationships and better harmony between people.

How then do we discipline not just an individual on mood but an entire community on healthy inter-relations? Does there need to be a structure of check-in accountability? That would require a checker and lead to a dominator and run the risk then of power-politics creeping in. Some small communities and family clans farmers maybe could accomplish this, but it seems to require constant vigil and mindfullness and responsibility of all concerned. So few get started and so few stay."

AWSOME!!!!!!!! It is self discipline, we have to awaken people to themselves the "soul" only then will they treat others as they wish to be treated..no? They'll see them selves in others because we r all twins out side these bodies only difference is what is in the mind......I like the circuit breaker!!! lol awsome U have very fertile soil!!!!

[HR][/HR]

#10
Alright, yeah, trip the circuit breaker and we can have a New Beginning :D

Chad: [FONT=&quot]A small child has only one ego, one perception of its identity, its true identity,and because of this it has an undivided mind. This is why Jesus said, ‘you must become like little children’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the child is overcome by the illusion that it is its physical body, another ego is formed, one that is false yet seems real, but so does the Super ego. Now the child has two egos, two perceptions of its identity, and the child’s peace is lost as its mind becomes divided.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]There is a truth to that. Like the Father is the river and we are eddies on it, or our bodies get filled with the river's water and then we think we are merely that which sloshes around inside the canteen. We fear we will pour out and evaporate and be no more. we cling to our roundish flat shape and sloshiness, the flavor that the addatives of life impart to us. but that is not our true nature. but our 'body ego' is very much tied to us as canteen tea, and when we are poured out and evaporate (or get drunk and so forth) then we lose that tea-essence and it does annihilate. So whether you have an after life depends on your definition of 'you'.

Of course though the other thing that little children do is become HIGHLY imaginative. Ego? They generate egoes and pour them into their dolls and stuffed animals and drawings and imaginary friends. I think then as some level the Source-Being is BURSTING to create canteen-egoes and have a fun run with them. I would not tut tut a child who showed me his drawings or stop a child from playing with the stuffed animals because "child it is only an illusion". But I also would not comprehent a right parent who would let children blow each other up over story books and sand castles.

about your Cain and Abel analogy though, I will point out that God was pleased with Abel but not with Cain. And yet God was merciful to protect and spare Cain while he let Abel die.
[/FONT]

#11
Tree Wyrm wrote:
It would seem that way on the surface, or it is that way when hate is used to negative effect.
I percieve hate as a primal driving force that needs to express itself outwardly in contempt of the current reality, the yang, to say that one does not like the current situation and acts to change it is an expression of hate.
I percieve love as yin, a wanting desire, to take something into oneself or to become one with something or someone, to want to benefit someone else or oneself passively without acting outwardly.

Here is an example i hope illuminates the misunderstanding of love and hate :
"I love listening to my favorite song"
vs
"I hate waiting to hear my favorite song played on the radio so i bought the song"
I could've also sworn,that I had replied to this already..
Hate is created from fear..

Love heals.

#12
MYSTIKDRAGON wrote:I could've also sworn,that I had replied to this already..
Hate is created from fear..

Love heals.
ok ok I'll admit it just this once that i need healing then
tired of suffering
could we just let it all slide?
I mean, Im just grateful you'd even call me on my crap

IMo we are both correct..LOL, and the only way for you to be 100% right would be for me to be a husband

and yes there are other missing posts too

#13
This is why

We were of the light but born in night,
Told that our brothers were the ones we should fight,
Told that our sisters wanted us dead,
attack each other till the rivers run red,
in ritual sacrifice unknown to most,
orchestrated by parasites looking for hosts,
told us lies that bring some de-light,
tell us no matter what we get thrown in the night,
The deep abyss that's hard to miss
if you follow the wolves that lead to abyss.

Wolves in shepherds clothing came,
to eat my wings and make me tame,
now it's time to join the light
and say goodbye to this big blight.

I'm glad I found you but feel alone,
for all my "life" i was cut to the bone,
now I'm healing but please be still
so I can see your cosmic will.

Thy will be done but also mine,
so please be pure and think of things fine,
not only fine but noble still
so you dont feed the abysses windmill.

#14
Hello WHY????? This is as good as any reason. "Thy will be done but also mine,
so please be pure and think of things fine" By Tyr. Sort of along the lines of be carefull what you wish for. OR we could compare Self will to divine will and dsicern where these two coincide or agree. ThY will is GOOD most will agree that divine will is good. But according to new thought beliefs its or unconscious beliefs and probally feelings of unworthieness that negate some of the prayers we feel are not answered.
Reaching for the Child that restores and renews the "Kingdom within" seems to be another ongoing goal and task. If we can or could stay in consistant harmony with that inner Kingdom then our child would alwys be filled with Joy and Peace. But lies or delusions of life seep in thru the various hurts and pains of life. On example may be how important words, imagination and images are too children and too the child within. When someone lies to us (person or Group) we can become less trustfull. And naturally so. Words are no longer a source of FULL Truth as they where from a loving set of parents. Which I was blessed enough to have untill i was,,,, say 8 years old. After that less so. And some people never had hardlly any good support as children. So I have no real right to whine, but sometimes I do.
So if we can weed out all these illusions then I would think and believe that the prayers would be more effective.
The Child Believes. The adult is often lost in functions.
Tim
Peace and happy New year

#15
Here's just one anecdote of how Christianity didn't survive the first few years. Peter murdered two disciples for keeping some of their own money after selling all their possessions for the church. If I remember correctly their names were Ananias and Saphira. Even today, people will say "Well, he was a bit harsh, but he was justified. You can't compromise with dishonesty."

"Forgive, so that you may be forgiven." Is what Master Yeshua taught.

#16
Hello That's one I have thought about and ask many about. The couple who did not trust and kept some money. Most all in the Christians circles that i have questioned say it was a act of God without question. That there is no tolerance for lies by God. But i wonder if it was a act of just losing control and Peter was punished in some way? Or maybe a combination of the couples own fear and the indecision between wanting to be a part of the group and not fully trusting this new group. If the miracles of the early Christians is accepted then there was alot of power there. The only thing JC ever destroyed was a tree that did not bear fruit. And the disciples talked him into giving it another year.
It is hard to forget that the only recorded use of deadly non physical force by the early Christians was with a couple from there own group. Force was also used with Magnus by Peter but that was not deadly. The Crusades and Inquistion was stickly physical forces. The gift of healing was not as prevalent as with the early Christians. I was told that the healings and miracles lessened after Constantine forced Christianity on Europe. The word pagans has some origins with the word villages, as that's where the earlier religions lived on. I do not recall which language.
Forgivness was lifted above the power to heal by JC, just before he healed somone.
Tim

#17
Clearblue"[FONT=&quot]about your Cain and Abel analogy though, I will point out that God was pleased with Abel but not with Cain. And yet God was merciful to protect and spare Cain while he let Abel die." when read correctly...Adam is the self, plural meaning[FONT=&quot]=man[FONT=&quot]kind. Eve is the mind....It is written "u shall leave thy father and mother( the self of God and the mind of God ur mother) [FONT=&quot]and cleave to ur wife" well we r not born with a wife partner so clearly its all[FONT=&quot]e[/FONT]goric[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] to the spirit. so when Adam and Eve live in the material realm their children are the identities born unto then thru interacting with each other (self n mind) and the out come is identities. 2 . one a killer and one a shepard.Cain the killer Abel the shepard. Really its Cain the false identity killer of the true identity of the Christ child that is u,Abel,Abel is the identity of the true self. arn't all the stories of sons in the bible pretty much one a killer ??one a shepard?? wouldn't the story of Adam and Eve when told literally be a creation of mankind thru incest?? lolol no it's allegoric. its when we live in the material the masks come on , the world is a stage full of actors. God spared Cain, the false Idnetity because its the only way to make a pure ,freshly born spirit an individual,put them in a place of choices of good and right. They may gain a false identity but soon they will see they are not a material being, but a spiritual one. in truth that is why we r all here. when that true identity is found it is the meaning of being born again, u have regained or refill the Holy Grail cup, and found the Ark of the covenant, it resisdes upon ur shoulders, it always has..........to rule the world the ruler's must rule the inner worlds(minds) of those being ruled. these stories are allegoric so the materialistic rulers couldn't read the message given. the true message frees the soul.....the literal message traps it here. Theres an awaking happening but what is it too?? the corruption of our leaders?? terrorists plans?? illuminati??? the awakening that needs to happen and its up to the awakened....to make sure its to the proper subject.....which is the self.... only when truth of the self is established can there be unconditional love. those r the keys home we have had them the whole time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWS6KqWisqY

#19
To answer the original question,the thing about humans is material. Even our consciousness is material, very diffuse material but material all the same. As such, some desire to control this material, and there is the underlying problem >> Who owns consciousness?

#20
Interesting angles, folks.... :)


Tim check out a book called "Pagan Christianity" it talks about a lot of the religious rituals that got into the church around Constantine that were *not* the original intent of Christ, and how that ritualized religious form differed so much from what Christianity was meant to be or could be. Miracles.... healing... I agree the truth is in the fruit and what has been the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting among the believers? It is not now what was written in the book about fellowship with the Holy Spirit. In those days of fellowship the acts of Anaias and his wife were ruinous sin because the deception-lack-of-flow cut off the great open grace of the Holy Spirit as it could harmonize if the community were fully crystalized in fellowship-harmonic. But hten there were so many flow-stoppers. The apostles grumbling they were being asked to wait on tables, so they chose deacons for the 'lesser tasks' like Phillip and Steven. The accusations of Steven pointing fingers at the Jews, who then stoned him. The letters of Paul are constant re-adustments to stumbling lost ones not knowing the way in their full hearts. Like Moses with his Midianite father-in-law, rather than re-assemble them all to face the Spirit, Paul tried to paint-by-numbers them with rules and decrees (but then some of those may actually be way latter forgeries that never saw the light of day in his actual life time). Law is a handrail : it prevents plunging but destorys balance when you lean on it. Law spares the material (sometimes) but is a barrier to the Fullest Spirit. It is the glorious irony that after jesus spent all that time with the disciples who constantly messed up, communication came to Peter by asking to welcome the gentiles as well, and the Holy Spirit fell on eveyrone in fellow-ship, not just the leader, and then Jesus chose a great christian-killer Paul to be the leader of them all.


The material can be a barrier, but mostly humans mess things up way way before mateiral necessity might force them to.

Where i work, they require professoinalism. I value hoensty. I can't do 'fake congenial.' so it's a question of aligning a true genuine congenial mind set even when the *holes don't deserve it. Is that a material motive for being spiritual?

#21
If only it were a matter of necessity, but the matter of consciousness is far more craven than we want to imagine. I admire that you feel you must align genuine congeniality in your daily expressions, and in contrast i despise that in the business of survival we are objectified through the manipulation of free will into a form of consciousness ownership. To be honestly ambiguous about it, I'm also glad you do as you are requested, even though i wish a better freedom for you.

Imo, the motive to be spiritual is stemming from a broken sense of continuity, the desire to reunify into something we were a part of. Unified consciousness without individuality of experiences or identity. By assuming the algorythms of individuality we are cut off from, so we describe metaphorical stories to assuage the need for wholeness, but in doing this we only pull other algorythms of individuality closer to us forming religions and cults and spiritual systems of description. Fantasy or reality, if it is real to you and it is real to me then it is real and we can make decisions based on reality between us. So it is a matter of consciousness being matter, who owns this matter, and what can be done with it.

#23
I'm seeng a bunch of quakers with pitch forks and ketchup descneding on the stable to stain their bibs in horse gravy.....

I feeling is that the cycle went from undifferentiated consciousness, to consciousness pulled into matter, to a conflict between Consciousness and the matter, to the birth of individuality in that matter, to the reaching toward fellowship, to the conflict of community vs. individualtiyt in matter (where we are about now)...... and toward the End game what the Consciousness seeks is Individuality fully harmonized in the All Counsciousness. By that I mean a Consciousness of Fellowhsip of Individuals. To love one another without the barriers of heirarchy or envy or conflict. Ego will not threaten, but also will not be threatened in that harmony. that is the "heaven" the Holy Spirit is/was seeking. The only haven H.S. truly enjoys to abide in. It was what Jesus wanted. But they bickered so much about who got to sit at his right or left side at the table, pointed the fingers at others so much, tried to grasp ahead toward a 'throne kingdom' future..... so forth.... you get the idea.

Seldome have I experienced that fellowhsip on this side of Earth. When one comes along who is receptive, I pledge myself I do not bar the door to them. For such in the inner sanctum then the ritual can be a barrier. For those far outside the rituals migh be a beacon. etc.

What exactly did you mean by this sentnce? "in the business of survival we are objectified through the manipulation of free will into a form of consciousness ownership"

#24
Mmmm..horse gravy

"in the business of survival we are objectified through the manipulation of free will into a form of consciousness ownership"

I mean about how a job and its benefits convinces people that they are doing the right thing by working for wages, and i can only agree with this because of the fact we have to do this to survive in western civilization. In the systems process we become objectified, our time energy skills etc these are all parts of self experience traded for the priveledge to exist within certain parameters. One actually sells ones self in the deal, our free will is given away in an act of free will in order to secure our continued existence. From that point on, according to the terms of the deal, our consciousness and experience are directed to the benefit of another more than ones self. We become owned by belief/authority/employer/family and self interests. And kind of in that order too.

#25
Sort of, but it is *always* an act of free will to enter into such an arrangement. Well, for a particular arrangement. We always have that choice to step away. We always have that choice to resist when their "ownership" goes beyond the bounds of spiritual integrity. But it is perhaps the greatest evil in society to have a power-politics corroded core beating at the heart of our civilzation. When humans feel or believe they have no choice but to obey unethics. I work in government, my business is saving nature, but I have met so many of those clueless slaughterhouse swine strutitng with their snouts helpd high and proud that they 'got there' on the 'coat tails' of some or another power politician. Invevitably they never last, one way or another. But the wrong ones can do damage so quickly. Some have threatened my job at times, trying to coerce me to do wrong or allow wrong to happen. I tell them if they retaliate against me I could cut a check to pay for the law suit. I am in process headed toward a law suit against them now. Won't go itno the technical leglaieze details, but essentially they are being sued for hypocrisy. It is very sordid how deep the corruption goes. The ethics committees that are bought out by politicians, the inspector generals who are corrupted.... the 'security' of our civilization is but a veneer. It will crack when the infrastructure drops out. Because they do not learn how to be people among people. They are pigeons in their skinner boxes, pushing buttons getting pellets from 'the system'. but i could keep ranting..... water is real. soil is real. edible matter is real. the heat of the fire, the plants that bust up the asphalt. I love the pictures of the wild boards and the wolves that roam free at Chernoble.

#26
Hello Clear Blue Sky and all. Alot of Pagan Holidays where assimilated by the Christians and Catholics. Maybe this is what that book below addresses. to some extent
From Clear Blue Sky:Tim check out a book called "Pagan Christianity" it talks about a lot of the religious rituals that got into the church around Constantine that were *not* the original intent of Christ, and how that ritualized religious form differed so much from what Christianity was meant to be or could be. Miracles.... healing... I agree the truth is in the fruit and what has been the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting among the believers? It is not now what was written in the book about fellowship with the Holy Spirit.
Fr Tim...... Everything is usually a matter of degree. The Miracles decreased alot after Constantine and probally thur the drak ages. Where physical force was valued more then the healing Graces. Healing Gifts are coming back but not to the degree I would like to see. In many faiths. I am sure these will improve. It has been 2000 years and Man keeps making the same mistakes. So I understand anyones dissapointments with how things have gone and what has man really learned. Going with the flow is definitlly the best place to be, and all seems OK when there. Or at least alot easier to deal with.
And rituals are repitive external acts that are intended to stir up Spirit in the self . Someone could say that the cycle of the sun and night and day is some repitive cycle to also stir up life in Self. And it does do that.


Fr Clear Blue Sky
In those days of fellowship the acts of Anaias and his wife were ruinous sin because the deception-lack-of-flow cut off the great open grace of the Holy Spirit as it could harmonize if the community were fully crystalized in fellowship-harmonic. But hten there were so many ..................................................................................by asking to welcome the gentiles as well, and the Holy Spirit fell on eveyrone in fellow-ship, not just the leader, and then Jesus chose a great christian-killer Paul to be the leader of them all.

Fr Tim.
So you have studied the Bible enough to see all the faults that the aposteles demonstrated. Paul did help melt the wall between Jews and gentiles. He considered himself a 'prisoner of the gospel". There is another verse where Paul mentions delivering .....(somone) to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. It does not say exactally what for, I recall it may have had something to do with balasemphy??
Its not supposed to be about Law. That is clearlly mentioned as the "stumbling block of the jews" . The HS is above all law and is simple. But you point out the contradictions where the apostles did not always accomplish this

I can look at my life as see where Catholic guilt may have messed some things up within myself. Telling people in the 60's and 70's that every direct venerial action (MB and others) is a Mortal sin. The latest Catechism has a loophole where it is not always a Mortal sin. But if you read it someone would need a lawyer. Sex has been shown to me to be a great way of grounding and getting in touch with the body when feeling spacy. But like alcohol it can easilier be abused when greed or lust gets involved. The gotta have this or that person even. The classical defintion of lust seems to have some problems in allowing many Christians to enjoy the benifits of healthy sex. Now the lines between healthy sex and sex that confuses or leads to unhealthy patterns has been argued for centuries.
WHY IS IT MESSED UP??? Many Many reasons, And if somone accepts recarnation as a Truth then it is hard to ignore my own contributions to certain sins of History. OR Someone could say I am only here out GRACE to help the rest of mankind. That's a nice thought and I am sure that is the case for some and for others it may be a nice delusion of superiority to help there self respect. And I mean that in both a positive and neg sense

Tim
Peace

#27
Hello Tree Wrym and all. The requirements of the Present system foster the below problem that Tree Wyrm addresses. The below problem is reduced to a major extent if someone enjoys or is at least content with say about 75% of there Job. OR You could even say your life in general. I think expecting 100% happy go lucky attitude on every day would be a nice goal but totally unrealistic in our present system. Where some sickness is accepted in society. Note that i did say the below problem is reduced by liking some of it not eliminated. And sometimes we do fake till till we make it. It does work...............sometimes.
I had to take a 15% pay cut to keep my job back in 2010 and still have not gotten any of that back. You could say that at least I have a job. And that is true. And since I like alot or most of my work that is also a good thing. But I still feel a bit used. I have been looking around a bit, but I am 61 and may retire at 62 or 63 anyways.
From Tree Wyrm
I mean about how a job and its benefits convinces people that they are doing the right thing by working for wages, and i can only agree with this because of the fact we have to do this to survive in western civilization. In the systems process we become objectified, our time energy skills etc these are all parts of self experience traded for the priveledge to exist within certain parameters. One actually sells ones self in the deal, our free will is given away in an act of free will in order to secure our continued existence. From that point on, according to the terms of the deal, our consciousness and experience are directed to the benefit of another more than ones self. We become owned by belief/authority/employer/family and self interests. And kind of in that order too.

#28
Great point all around, and thans Tim and Tree. I think a large part of the failing of the church religious culture is that they are so easily distracted away from the First Principle and One Thing Needful by all the cultural moralizing trappings. Legislating against 'sins', trying to define cultural norms about human/social topics Jesus never even bothered to mention. (He spoke in the gospels about adultery but not about homosexuality or assisted suicide, and yet the religious radios go on and on and on about the latter topics but are silent mostly on adultery these days, and way way way silent of grace and forgivness and "judge not lest ye be judged" which if you read the gospels is one of the FIRST things Jesus brings up in many of them). While yapping after wolves the flock scatters, and I mean that in the spiritual fellowship sense, not the bunker mentality.

I recently saw the musical movie "Into the Woods". It was very moving how in the first round folks try to obtain their quest by exploting and cheating and stealing from each other a lot, and at the second part they resolve toward a sense of better personal respect and humanity. Would not everyone want to be humane if humanity were offered to them? Maybe coping in this world is more like Teddy-grisley bear Roosevelt "speak softly but carry a big stick". Or is it more you can get further in life with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word?

#29
Hello Clear Blue Sky and all. Alot of Pagan Holidays where assimilated by the Christians and Catholics. Maybe this is what that book below addresses. to some extent
From Clear Blue Sky:Tim check out a book called "Pagan Christianity" it talks about a lot of the religious rituals that got into the church around Constantine that were *not* the original intent of Christ, and how that ritualized religious form differed so much from what Christianity was meant to be or could be. Miracles.... healing... I agree the truth is in the fruit and what has been the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting among the believers? It is not now what was written in the book about fellowship with the Holy Spirit.
Fr Tim...... Everything is usually a matter of degree. The Miracles decreased alot after Constantine and probally thur the drak ages. Where physical force was valued more then the healing Graces. Healing Gifts are coming back but not to the degree I would like to see. In many faiths. I am sure these will improve. I have been to lots of healing services and felt the heat that often accompanys a healing when I was healed one day. I have not figured this thing out after about 25 years. Lots of theories, but none proven. Anybody that says they know 100% about this is highlly doubted by me. Maybe I have passed up a few avatars?? How it works when it works and why sometimes it does not. It has been 2000 years and Man keeps making the same mistakes. So I understand anyones dissapointments with how things have gone and what has man really learned. Going with the flow is definitlly the best place to be, and all seems OK when there. Or at least alot easier to deal with.
And rituals are repitive external acts that are intended to stir up Spirit in the self . Someone could say that the cycle of the sun and night and day is some repitive cycle to also stir up life in Self. And it does do that.


Fr Clear Blue Sky
In those days of fellowship the acts of Anaias and his wife were ruinous sin because the deception-lack-of-flow cut off the great open grace of the Holy Spirit as it could harmonize if the community were fully crystalized in fellowship-harmonic. But hten there were so many ..................................................................................by asking to welcome the gentiles as well, and the Holy Spirit fell on eveyrone in fellow-ship, not just the leader, and then Jesus chose a great christian-killer Paul to be the leader of them all.

Fr Tim.
So you have studied the Bible enough to see all the faults that the aposteles demonstrated. Paul did help melt the wall between Jews and gentiles. He considered himself a 'prisoner of the gospel". There is another verse where Paul mentions delivering .....(somone) to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. It does not say exactally what for, I recall it may have had something to do with balasemphy??
Its not supposed to be about Law. That is clearlly mentioned as the "stumbling block of the jews" . The HS is above all law and is simple. But you point out the contradictions where the apostles did not always accomplish this

I can look at my life as see where Catholic guilt may have messed some things up within myself. Telling people in the 60's and 70's that every direct venerial action (MB and others) is a Mortal sin. The latest Catechism has a loophole where it is not always a Mortal sin. But if you read it someone would need a lawyer. Sex has been shown to me to be a great way of grounding and getting in touch with the body when feeling spacy. But like alcohol it can easilier be abused when greed or lust gets involved. The gotta have this or that person even. The classical defintion of lust seems to have some problems in allowing many Christians to enjoy the benifits of healthy sex. Now the lines between healthy sex feelings/attitudes and sex that confuses or leads to unhealthy patterns has been argued for centuries. And these lines have been argued about as intensely as any line of Truth
WHY IS IT MESSED UP??? Many Many reasons, And if somone accepts recarnation as a Truth then it is hard to ignore my own contributions to certain sins of History. OR Someone could say I am only here out GRACE to help the rest of mankind. That's a nice thought and I am sure that is the case for some and for others it may be a nice delusion of superiority to help there self respect. And I mean that in both a positive and neg sense

Tim
Peace

#30
I will try to type this new format keeps obliterating what I say..... Yeah, like Catholic guilt. Or the actor who says as a small child the priests would often tower over him, point the finger, and scowl and declare "You're nothing. remember that. you are *nothing*." And teaching children to fear and dread their own biology, and be mindful to learn all the religious incantations and rituals. And vote for the right political party candidate with the right social agenda. Defend marraige against same-sex couples? How about defending marriage against domestic violence? How about defending married couples against their own bickering? How about being a beacon of LIGHT for all the 'judge not lest ye be judged' and forgiveness and 'let your peace return to you' that Jesus spoke of? But they just aren't like that. ... .. :(

#31
I will try to type this new format keeps obliterating what I say..... Yeah, like Catholic guilt. Or the actor who says as a small child the priests would often tower over him, point the finger, and scowl and declare "You're nothing. remember that. you are *nothing*." And teaching children to fear and dread their own biology, and be mindful to learn all the religious incantations and rituals. And vote for the right political party candidate with the right social agenda. Defend marraige against same-sex couples? How about defending marriage against domestic violence? How about defending married couples against their own bickering? How about being a beacon of LIGHT for all the 'judge not lest ye be judged' and forgiveness and 'let your peace return to you' that Jesus spoke of? But they just aren't like that. ... .. :(

Pagan Christianity yeah the book talked of the holidays and feast days. But also how the typical (and not jesus focused) rituals and trappings of church actually came not from Jesus and what he had in mind but from existing Roman, or mystery cult, or druidic or other barbarian rituals and rites. The priest in flowing robes with the smoke and incantations, the hymnal choir, the rows of pews all facing the performing cult leader rather than interacting with each other, he statuary and stained glass windows. Interestingly enough I trakced my ancestry to some early saints and kings..... the 'saints' happened to be the ancestors of the kings or first bishops abbots and such. They were those people whom the first saints and kings (when they were pagans before conversion) would have worshipped in ancestor worship. So instead they turn th ose 'household gods' into 'saints in heaven' and say, 'well it's not worship, but they are in heaven and we can commune with them and they can intercede on our behalf with God.....) kind of an acrobatic skate-around.

#32
As far as I understand it, this is because the tenets of the church, and The Bible are not "The Gospel according to Jesus" but "The Gospel according to Constantine."

#33
I am so confused and sad at the same time only by thinking of it.

My name is Angelina and sinds I was a small I have been feeling very different amongst other. Still now I feel like I don´t belong here. Feeling
like I am too kind and in the beginning I could hear voices calling for my name. And I tried to avoid every strangeness what is happening around me, because
if somebody like normal earth people would know they might think I am crazy. But it comes back over and over again. So now I just try to avoid, but sometimes I just can´t and found
this forum.... So here is my story so far:

I feel constantly strong energy from inside, specially when i do angel meditations. I start to feel my wings, so big and soft, so warm feeling and they are going forward and backwards. I could really feel small wind what was coming from my wings. And when I did some research I saw the whole room turning from my inside amazing blue energy. Sometimes I see more energy then real live stuff. I also get flashbacks from past. That I was a beautiful big angel with very nice clothing with cristals on me. This Sapphire blue color is really my color and while I meditate I dd go to the angels place with beautiful flying horses and so on. And everytime when I think of that place, makes me more wanting to go there. I get soooooo homesick. I start to cry etc....
My hand gets often very warm/extreemly hot and when i thatch someone for instands I did without knowing a healing process to my grandmother. My grandmother said you have really magical powers. While I did the massage she told me what she saw and when she said it I almost couldn´t believe it. A while ago I had also with angel words. It felt on moment that I had to write something down and the next thing I wrote a whole story and bunch of spells and keywords in Angel Language. After that It felt like I could speak that language too. One portall was open and that had to close as fast as possible so without knowing I spoke these words/and directly took crystalls and candalls etc. I have more of these crazy stories, but anyway I feel sometimes so lonely.
I really like what I am capible of and these is definatly more but I try to avoid all this because I get homesick and people will say I am weird and need to go to crazyhouse if you know what I am speaking about haha.

One moment I would also not forget. It was so funny, I did also one test with my energyveld on my hand and when I looked after the test into the mirror. The mirror almost felt, the vibration got very high when I came closer haha....

So I hope I will not sound too weird and this is my story....

#34
Hi Angel. Check out the forum main page. There are a lot of topics and subforums here, and also the cafe at the top of the list and a place for new member introductions. If you start a thread in one of those, you can find several that are a great fit for your topic and your story. Browse them you will find that there are other here, as you say 'weird' and we accept each other.
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