Why is it?

#1
Why is it Jesus spelled out some of his tenants very clearly in the gospels, and throughout all of history for the most part Christians have done the opposite?

He said "Judge not, lest you be judge. Forgive, and you will be forgiven"
He said, "If somebody asks for your coat, give him your cloak as well."
He said "Love your enemies."

But the church and church people so much throughout all of history have done just the opposite.

Jeesh, turn on the religious radios these days it is all about waging war in court battles, legislating against gays, demonizing muslims. Not a SINGLE word about love or forgiveness (apart from the occasional pat phrase "hate the sin love the sinner" which is usually a qualificaiton in the middle of their antagonistic rants).

It' not just the modern times. There have been numerous reforms throughotu history, all of them aspiring, all of them falling woefully short and leading in the wrong direction or some other distraction once again.

and not just christians. so many cults have formed too, so many utopias fallen.

What is it with people?

#2
Thank you Tree Wyrm for your thoughtful introflective post. So much truth and wisdom and perception in them.

There are so many stampedes in society, even the smartest cattle can get swept up in it. What jesus taught was meant to be an antidote to the stampedes, and also a sobering way to dust oneself off after getting swept into a stampede. On the individual level it is the freedom to realize that at every moment we have a choice, and to stand boldly and sometimes dangeorusly for that choice.

About following the bible.... the thing is they don't even go 'by the book'. They get distracted by stampedes and bent off track. Turn on the radio today in America and it seems on the Chrisian stations that christianity is synonymous with opposing gay marriage. Why? The bible says nothing about marriage laws. At the time the Bible was written, I don't even think marriage was a religious thing. The bible says of the laws turn neither to the left nor the right. the law says to stone men who have sex with other men. It says nothing about stoning women who sleep with other women. It says nothing about don't stone them but don't allow them to marry. Most christians seem to agree it is not okay to stone men who have sex with other men any more (which is fine with me that they don't stone them). But if they stop the stoning, why do they then attack the marriage? I know men who truly love each other, put their careers on hold to be with each other in dire need. Christians never even attempt to dialog on that level. I am saying this as only one example of the many inconsistencies. It is not truly Jesus and not truly the Bible and not truly God that these vocal set-a-bad-example radio Christians are following, but their own cultural stampede. This kind of off-track bickering began in the book of Acts. Paul had to deal with it. Peter had to deal with it. Why don't Christians actually read their book cover to cover and think about the message of their so-called leader Jesus and do a reality check on their assumptions and then do the right thing?

Some things God allegedly sent prophets to complain about on a regular basis

Justice for the widows and orphans.
Equal non corrupt justice for both the rich and the poor.
Observing the sabbath rest both for oneself and one's servants.
idolotry especially eating rasin cakes dancing under trees or sacrificing children -- god threatened drought and sterile cattle for doing those things.

But nobody speaks out against working on the sabbath any more. They never speak out against poverty or orphans or widows or injustice. just mostly about abortion and muslims and homosexuals and sometimes against evolution or career women. At least they've shut up about the flat earth already.

hypocrites

#3
LOL, Im adding that to my christmas wish list..dancing raisin cakes under a tree haha. I am so gonna eat them all and bah humbug to the children thay cant have any!

Idk, said sumthin about if a mans ass lives in a whole its ok to werk it out. Juss gotta learn to twerkk things in your favor remembering that all religion is to agree with the group as to what is moreal and acceptable despite contradictions.

In my cult there are 2 rules, we rock this world and there are no rules. See that way its all good right?

#4
Hello..... What is with people who continue to repeat the same mistakes and sins thru history???? One simple answer is people are not perfect. But that's way too simple. How about the stress of daily life and paying the bills is that a good excuse for some mess ups? When people are stressed or in pain the patience threshold is lower and more conflicts and hate or frustration happens. But that's an excuse. At least a partial factor.

So if some one has a goal to be good but falls short they should at least get a few more points then the people that have no goal but the law of Self. And when do we redeem those points for all the good intentions that where not always met? To the laws of the universe and God of course. But if people 100% create thier own reality then they can create around those laws. Which they can do for awhile till it catches up with the Truth of universal laws that have been forever and will be forever. But who has proof of all these laws? We have heard them all, but where is the evidence? Here and there.

If we where perfect would we still be here? And when someone gets perfect do they hang around or take off? Like when JC said 'How long must I bear this generation". In 2000 years its mostlly been his mother Mary that's done most of the 3D visiting. But The holy Spirit is always there. even if its not always felt. That's a hard one to swallow.

How can we have heaven on earth if people keep messing up? Good questions.

Some may say that Christians use Forgiveness as a free gift to continue to mess up. ?? Some probally do.

Is free will worth It??????????????? Yes, I guess so. Prettty Sure it is.

Tim
Peace

#5
That's a good summary-comprehensive analysis there, Seeker Time. There's some interesting insight in some of the epistles of Paul talking along those same lines, as the First Believers sought to work out what it meant. And the parable of Jesus about the farmer sowing the seed. Some fell in shallow soil, some fell among thorns.... when I was a kid I was sad the farmer was so careless with his seeds. But if you pay attention to when Jesus explains that Parabable the seeds are not people. The seeds are the Word of God, or the teachings of Jesus about foregiveness and non judgment and love and all. We the people are the Soil. If we are superficial how we handle it, the Word will produce no true fruit. If we let the cares and troubles (thorns) of life choke us, we will not be 'productive'. If we carefully cultivate our 'soil' our mind, intent, will, etc, then we can enter "the Kingdom of God". Which did not mean like scoring points for Heaven or the afterlife judgment thing it was something altogether other. The bliss that could be ever-present. Eastern philosophy/spiritual meditations in many way fall along similar lines, albiet maybe with less love and more dispassion -- the east focused more on mood and tone than on inter-relationships.

At its best foregiveness is not a get-out-of-jail free card. It's more like a circuit breaker so that the community can put the past aside and move on, hopefully with re-established relationships and better harmony between people.

How then do we discipline not just an individual on mood but an entire community on healthy inter-relations? Does there need to be a structure of check-in accountability? That would require a checker and lead to a dominator and run the risk then of power-politics creeping in. Some small communities and family clans farmers maybe could accomplish this, but it seems to require constant vigil and mindfullness and responsibility of all concerned. So few get started and so few stay.

#7
MYSTIKDRAGON wrote:TreeWyrm,you said hate gives..? When it does not,it takes.
It would seem that way on the surface, or it is that way when hate is used to negative effect.
I percieve hate as a primal driving force that needs to express itself outwardly in contempt of the current reality, the yang, to say that one does not like the current situation and acts to change it is an expression of hate.
I percieve love as yin, a wanting desire, to take something into oneself or to become one with something or someone, to want to benefit someone else or oneself passively without acting outwardly.

Here is an example i hope illuminates the misunderstanding of love and hate :
"I love listening to my favorite song"
vs
"I hate waiting to hear my favorite song played on the radio so i bought the song"

#8
why people do as they do?? [FONT=&quot]The Divided Mind[/FONT]






[FONT=&quot]Ego is the Self’s perception of its identity. In other words, what the Self believes itself to be. A person acts according to what they believe they are.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A small child perceives only its true identity. It is so familiar with its super ego that it does not question the nature of itself. It simply accepts that it is not a material thing.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alter egos, i.e. alternate egos, are false egos that are learned as the child interacts with the world, and with people who have become unfamiliar with their super ego, i.e. their True Self.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is when a child first sees the reflection of its physical body, such as in ‘the rouge test’, that it is presented with the illusion that it is the physical body. To a child who has very little knowledge, understanding and reasoning skills, the illusion is very powerful, and even more so when encouraged to accept the illusion.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Before a small child sees the reflection of its physical body for the first time, it feels hidden and unseen, except through its eyes, only then does the child think that it is seen. It’s quite funny how a small child can cover its eyes with its hands and believe that it can’t be seen.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A small child has only one ego, one perception of its identity, its true identity,and because of this it has an undivided mind. This is why Jesus said, ‘you must become like little children’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the child is overcome by the illusion that it is its physical body, another ego is formed, one that is false yet seems real, but so does the Super ego. Now the child has two egos, two perceptions of its identity, and the child’s peace is lost as its mind becomes divided.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The loss of recognition of a soul's true nature as a spiritual being, and the formation of another identity, results in a split personality; that is to say, two distinct and opposing personalities. It is like being two distinct and different people, each taking its turn to rule, hence two masters to serve; one inherently good (the True Self), and one inherently sinful (the false Self). This is why Jesus said, ‘You cannot serve two masters’. (You cannot serve the true Self and the false Self).This is why a person can sin and then feel sorrow and shame for sinning. In Truth, you can only serve one master at a time, and while you are serving one, you are in denial of the other. Those who Love others are serving their Super ego, those who care only for their own needs are serving their false ego.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These perceptions of the Self’s identities reside outside of the Self in the mind, and they are referred to as the Self’s children because they were created by the Self. In Genesis they were called Kane and Abel, the children of Adam and Eve, (Adam the Self and Eve the mind), but before we consider the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis, I want you to consider the nature of the god and the doctrines that are being taught by those of religions such as; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You should also consider what their interpretations of the scriptures are based on. Is it their Super ego or their false ego that is responsible for their interpretations? Are they based on spirituality or materiality?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Father of a spiritual being is naturally a spiritual being.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Father of a physical being is naturally a physical being.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A spiritual being relies on spiritual things for its life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A physical being relies on material things for its life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Does God rely on material things for His life?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you had no mind, what would you be aware of?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is mind a material thing; is it made of atoms?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Are thoughts and awareness made of atoms?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is God a physical being?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Is Heaven a material place containing material things?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is the nature of the Father that is taught by the keepers of the scriptures?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Has that father been reasoned by the Super ego (the Self-identity as a spiritual being? Or has it been reasoned by the false ego (the Self-identity as a physical being?)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam have served only to reinforce the belief that we are physical beings that serve only the false ego. Are they leading you to God or away from God? Are they leading you towards knowing your true Self or away from your true Self? They are blind to the spirit and therefore can teach only of material things. How then can they interpret the Word of God?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]‘I AM THAT I AM’ does not mean ‘I am a physical being’. How small they make God when they teach that he came down to Moses as a physical being that hid on a mountain from the rest of the world. How like themselves they make their god; angry, vengeful, jealous, possessive, and a murderer of his children.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Truth remains in the Bible, hidden from the false ego, and Jesus was killed for revealing it, and their blindness.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Even now their religions, created by the false ego, are being replaced by Atheistic materialism and Darwinism, which serve only the false ego without the need for a God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now for the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The story of Adam and Eve is the revelation of the birth of every soul, yours included.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Garden of Eden is a place set aside in Heaven where each of us were prepared for our journey to perfection. It is the place where we as spiritual beings (children of our Father), first experienced life.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Every spiritual being is capable of awareness, and so to become aware, requires something to be aware of. When we are aware of something we are experiencing life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When we are not aware of anything, such as when in dreamless sleep, we are not experiencing life, or anything else.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]LIFE IS THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING AWARE OF SOMETHING[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]CONSCIOUSNESS IS THE STATE OF BEING AWARE[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is through the things that exist in the mind that we experience life. The mind exists between the Self and all that is outside of the mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Self exists within the mind[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The mind is the Self’s domain[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]THE MIND IS REQUIRED TO EXPERIENCE LIFE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Even our Father has a mind, it is called Heaven[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now back to the Garden of Eden.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Self existed before it experienced life; it was once a part of our Father.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Self as a spiritual being first experienced life in the Garden of Eden. It had no mind of its own, but instead, shared a part of the Father’s mind, a part set aside east of Eden.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Eden is the place that contains the Father’s secret knowledge; the Absolute Truth yet to be learned by the Father’s new born children.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is our Father’s mind (Heaven) that is the Mother of us all, for she delivered us into life, into awareness.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The word ‘God’ refers to Father (the first and supreme spiritual being) and Mother (the first and supreme spiritual beings mind). It is in this image that we are made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Love of a child cannot be commanded or forced. If it is to be of any worth then it must be given of the free will. It must be a choice made in the absence of fear or deceit, (which is the concealment of Truth).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you Love someone let them go, if they Love you they will return.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was in the Garden that the Self was given its own personal domain to rule, its own piece of Heaven; its mind. It is known as Eve, your life journey companion. This is the true meaning of leaving your Father and Mother and cleaving to your wife. Together you are a soul.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If it were not so then your earthly Father and Mother would be God, and you would not be able to experience life without an earthly wife.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now to the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Before Adam and Eve ate from the tree they were naked, they had nothing to hide.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Every soul was meant to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Without such knowledge a soul would be without choice, and free will would not be of any use, because the soul would be left with no choice other than to conform. If a soul didn’t know wrong then how would it know that right is right?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The serpent represents desire:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was the desire for knowledge that tempted Adam through his mind (Eve). It was the mind that received it first and then gave it to Adam (the Self).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The next part of God’s plan was to send each soul to a place separated from Heaven so that they could learn for themselves the difference between good and evil, a place where they could learn for themselves, the Truth, and to Love each other, a place where they could become perfected by their own will. We know this place as the world, a part of the material Universe, a place from where God cannot be seen. It is here alone that evil is permitted.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It was only when Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree that they had something to hide. It was the knowledge of evil that they were ashamed of.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The skins that God gave us to cover us are our physical bodies.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The children of Adam and Eve are our egos, i.e. our super ego which is our identity as a spiritual being, and our false identity as a physical being. They are referred to as Kane (the physical identity) and Abel (the true spiritual identity).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Kane killed Abel by taking away his true identity. This is why it was said, ‘two will lie on a bed and one will die and the other will live’.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To experience life as Kane is to experience death, because the flesh has no life. To experience life as Kane is to experience an illusion, one that makes the Self believe that its life is dependent on the material world and upon the flesh.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Each ego, each Self-identity requires its own desires, its own state of mind, beliefs and reasonings. And therefore the Self that has two egos experiences two states of consciousness. Only one state can be experienced at a time, only one Self-identity can rule at a time. Whichever one is chosen becomes the master the ruler for its duration.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The mind becomes a divided Kingdom ruled by two masters, each taking its turn to rule, each fighting for complete domination, and there is the cause of the loss of peace in the mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This endless conflict can only be ended when the Self comes to know its true Self. Who is winning in your life, Kane or Abel?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you are still spiritually aware and still have Love and seek Truth, you must become your own master; you must come to know your True Self.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Each day you battle against Kane and the world, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose and feel ashamed. Isn’t it time that you ended this battle? Isn’t it time to commit yourself to one way, to being the only master of your domain (mind)? In the end there can be only one, let it be your True Self, a child of God. Only then will you find peace, and make yourself worthy of Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A house set against itself cannot stand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is your mind that is a temple; make your True Self the cornerstone.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Kingdom is within you, make it as the Father’s, undivided, a place of Love and Truth. It is then that your light will shine and the Father will reveal himself to you, and your Love will be fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Your father waits patiently while your will is done. He understands and always Loves you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am from the undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father to share with you, my family.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Love and peace[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]William[/FONT]Gospel of Thomas fully interpreted

#9
clearblue;"That's a good summary-comprehensive analysis there, Seeker Time. There's some interesting insight in some of the epistles of Paul talking along those same lines, as the First Believers sought to work out what it meant. And the parable of Jesus about the farmer sowing the seed. Some fell in shallow soil, some fell among thorns.... when I was a kid I was sad the farmer was so careless with his seeds. But if you pay attention to when Jesus explains that Parabable the seeds are not people. The seeds are the Word of God, or the teachings of Jesus about foregiveness and non judgment and love and all. We the people are the Soil. If we are superficial how we handle it, the Word will produce no true fruit. If we let the cares and troubles (thorns) of life choke us, we will not be 'productive'. If we carefully cultivate our 'soil' our mind, intent, will, etc, then we can enter "the Kingdom of God". Which did not mean like scoring points for Heaven or the afterlife judgment thing it was something altogether other. The bliss that could be ever-present. Eastern philosophy/spiritual meditations in many way fall along similar lines, albiet maybe with less love and more dispassion -- the east focused more on mood and tone than on inter-relationships.

At its best foregiveness is not a get-out-of-jail free card. It's more like a circuit breaker so that the community can put the past aside and move on, hopefully with re-established relationships and better harmony between people.

How then do we discipline not just an individual on mood but an entire community on healthy inter-relations? Does there need to be a structure of check-in accountability? That would require a checker and lead to a dominator and run the risk then of power-politics creeping in. Some small communities and family clans farmers maybe could accomplish this, but it seems to require constant vigil and mindfullness and responsibility of all concerned. So few get started and so few stay."

AWSOME!!!!!!!! It is self discipline, we have to awaken people to themselves the "soul" only then will they treat others as they wish to be treated..no? They'll see them selves in others because we r all twins out side these bodies only difference is what is in the mind......I like the circuit breaker!!! lol awsome U have very fertile soil!!!!

[HR][/HR]

#10
Alright, yeah, trip the circuit breaker and we can have a New Beginning :D

Chad: [FONT=&quot]A small child has only one ego, one perception of its identity, its true identity,and because of this it has an undivided mind. This is why Jesus said, ‘you must become like little children’.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the child is overcome by the illusion that it is its physical body, another ego is formed, one that is false yet seems real, but so does the Super ego. Now the child has two egos, two perceptions of its identity, and the child’s peace is lost as its mind becomes divided.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]There is a truth to that. Like the Father is the river and we are eddies on it, or our bodies get filled with the river's water and then we think we are merely that which sloshes around inside the canteen. We fear we will pour out and evaporate and be no more. we cling to our roundish flat shape and sloshiness, the flavor that the addatives of life impart to us. but that is not our true nature. but our 'body ego' is very much tied to us as canteen tea, and when we are poured out and evaporate (or get drunk and so forth) then we lose that tea-essence and it does annihilate. So whether you have an after life depends on your definition of 'you'.

Of course though the other thing that little children do is become HIGHLY imaginative. Ego? They generate egoes and pour them into their dolls and stuffed animals and drawings and imaginary friends. I think then as some level the Source-Being is BURSTING to create canteen-egoes and have a fun run with them. I would not tut tut a child who showed me his drawings or stop a child from playing with the stuffed animals because "child it is only an illusion". But I also would not comprehent a right parent who would let children blow each other up over story books and sand castles.

about your Cain and Abel analogy though, I will point out that God was pleased with Abel but not with Cain. And yet God was merciful to protect and spare Cain while he let Abel die.
[/FONT]

#11
Tree Wyrm wrote:
It would seem that way on the surface, or it is that way when hate is used to negative effect.
I percieve hate as a primal driving force that needs to express itself outwardly in contempt of the current reality, the yang, to say that one does not like the current situation and acts to change it is an expression of hate.
I percieve love as yin, a wanting desire, to take something into oneself or to become one with something or someone, to want to benefit someone else or oneself passively without acting outwardly.

Here is an example i hope illuminates the misunderstanding of love and hate :
"I love listening to my favorite song"
vs
"I hate waiting to hear my favorite song played on the radio so i bought the song"
I could've also sworn,that I had replied to this already..
Hate is created from fear..

Love heals.

#12
MYSTIKDRAGON wrote:I could've also sworn,that I had replied to this already..
Hate is created from fear..

Love heals.
ok ok I'll admit it just this once that i need healing then
tired of suffering
could we just let it all slide?
I mean, Im just grateful you'd even call me on my crap

IMo we are both correct..LOL, and the only way for you to be 100% right would be for me to be a husband

and yes there are other missing posts too

#13
This is why

We were of the light but born in night,
Told that our brothers were the ones we should fight,
Told that our sisters wanted us dead,
attack each other till the rivers run red,
in ritual sacrifice unknown to most,
orchestrated by parasites looking for hosts,
told us lies that bring some de-light,
tell us no matter what we get thrown in the night,
The deep abyss that's hard to miss
if you follow the wolves that lead to abyss.

Wolves in shepherds clothing came,
to eat my wings and make me tame,
now it's time to join the light
and say goodbye to this big blight.

I'm glad I found you but feel alone,
for all my "life" i was cut to the bone,
now I'm healing but please be still
so I can see your cosmic will.

Thy will be done but also mine,
so please be pure and think of things fine,
not only fine but noble still
so you dont feed the abysses windmill.

#14
Hello WHY????? This is as good as any reason. "Thy will be done but also mine,
so please be pure and think of things fine" By Tyr. Sort of along the lines of be carefull what you wish for. OR we could compare Self will to divine will and dsicern where these two coincide or agree. ThY will is GOOD most will agree that divine will is good. But according to new thought beliefs its or unconscious beliefs and probally feelings of unworthieness that negate some of the prayers we feel are not answered.
Reaching for the Child that restores and renews the "Kingdom within" seems to be another ongoing goal and task. If we can or could stay in consistant harmony with that inner Kingdom then our child would alwys be filled with Joy and Peace. But lies or delusions of life seep in thru the various hurts and pains of life. On example may be how important words, imagination and images are too children and too the child within. When someone lies to us (person or Group) we can become less trustfull. And naturally so. Words are no longer a source of FULL Truth as they where from a loving set of parents. Which I was blessed enough to have untill i was,,,, say 8 years old. After that less so. And some people never had hardlly any good support as children. So I have no real right to whine, but sometimes I do.
So if we can weed out all these illusions then I would think and believe that the prayers would be more effective.
The Child Believes. The adult is often lost in functions.
Tim
Peace and happy New year

#15
Here's just one anecdote of how Christianity didn't survive the first few years. Peter murdered two disciples for keeping some of their own money after selling all their possessions for the church. If I remember correctly their names were Ananias and Saphira. Even today, people will say "Well, he was a bit harsh, but he was justified. You can't compromise with dishonesty."

"Forgive, so that you may be forgiven." Is what Master Yeshua taught.

#16
Hello That's one I have thought about and ask many about. The couple who did not trust and kept some money. Most all in the Christians circles that i have questioned say it was a act of God without question. That there is no tolerance for lies by God. But i wonder if it was a act of just losing control and Peter was punished in some way? Or maybe a combination of the couples own fear and the indecision between wanting to be a part of the group and not fully trusting this new group. If the miracles of the early Christians is accepted then there was alot of power there. The only thing JC ever destroyed was a tree that did not bear fruit. And the disciples talked him into giving it another year.
It is hard to forget that the only recorded use of deadly non physical force by the early Christians was with a couple from there own group. Force was also used with Magnus by Peter but that was not deadly. The Crusades and Inquistion was stickly physical forces. The gift of healing was not as prevalent as with the early Christians. I was told that the healings and miracles lessened after Constantine forced Christianity on Europe. The word pagans has some origins with the word villages, as that's where the earlier religions lived on. I do not recall which language.
Forgivness was lifted above the power to heal by JC, just before he healed somone.
Tim

#17
Clearblue"[FONT=&quot]about your Cain and Abel analogy though, I will point out that God was pleased with Abel but not with Cain. And yet God was merciful to protect and spare Cain while he let Abel die." when read correctly...Adam is the self, plural meaning[FONT=&quot]=man[FONT=&quot]kind. Eve is the mind....It is written "u shall leave thy father and mother( the self of God and the mind of God ur mother) [FONT=&quot]and cleave to ur wife" well we r not born with a wife partner so clearly its all[FONT=&quot]e[/FONT]goric[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] to the spirit. so when Adam and Eve live in the material realm their children are the identities born unto then thru interacting with each other (self n mind) and the out come is identities. 2 . one a killer and one a shepard.Cain the killer Abel the shepard. Really its Cain the false identity killer of the true identity of the Christ child that is u,Abel,Abel is the identity of the true self. arn't all the stories of sons in the bible pretty much one a killer ??one a shepard?? wouldn't the story of Adam and Eve when told literally be a creation of mankind thru incest?? lolol no it's allegoric. its when we live in the material the masks come on , the world is a stage full of actors. God spared Cain, the false Idnetity because its the only way to make a pure ,freshly born spirit an individual,put them in a place of choices of good and right. They may gain a false identity but soon they will see they are not a material being, but a spiritual one. in truth that is why we r all here. when that true identity is found it is the meaning of being born again, u have regained or refill the Holy Grail cup, and found the Ark of the covenant, it resisdes upon ur shoulders, it always has..........to rule the world the ruler's must rule the inner worlds(minds) of those being ruled. these stories are allegoric so the materialistic rulers couldn't read the message given. the true message frees the soul.....the literal message traps it here. Theres an awaking happening but what is it too?? the corruption of our leaders?? terrorists plans?? illuminati??? the awakening that needs to happen and its up to the awakened....to make sure its to the proper subject.....which is the self.... only when truth of the self is established can there be unconditional love. those r the keys home we have had them the whole time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWS6KqWisqY

#19
To answer the original question,the thing about humans is material. Even our consciousness is material, very diffuse material but material all the same. As such, some desire to control this material, and there is the underlying problem >> Who owns consciousness?

#20
Interesting angles, folks.... :)


Tim check out a book called "Pagan Christianity" it talks about a lot of the religious rituals that got into the church around Constantine that were *not* the original intent of Christ, and how that ritualized religious form differed so much from what Christianity was meant to be or could be. Miracles.... healing... I agree the truth is in the fruit and what has been the fruit of the Holy Spirit acting among the believers? It is not now what was written in the book about fellowship with the Holy Spirit. In those days of fellowship the acts of Anaias and his wife were ruinous sin because the deception-lack-of-flow cut off the great open grace of the Holy Spirit as it could harmonize if the community were fully crystalized in fellowship-harmonic. But hten there were so many flow-stoppers. The apostles grumbling they were being asked to wait on tables, so they chose deacons for the 'lesser tasks' like Phillip and Steven. The accusations of Steven pointing fingers at the Jews, who then stoned him. The letters of Paul are constant re-adustments to stumbling lost ones not knowing the way in their full hearts. Like Moses with his Midianite father-in-law, rather than re-assemble them all to face the Spirit, Paul tried to paint-by-numbers them with rules and decrees (but then some of those may actually be way latter forgeries that never saw the light of day in his actual life time). Law is a handrail : it prevents plunging but destorys balance when you lean on it. Law spares the material (sometimes) but is a barrier to the Fullest Spirit. It is the glorious irony that after jesus spent all that time with the disciples who constantly messed up, communication came to Peter by asking to welcome the gentiles as well, and the Holy Spirit fell on eveyrone in fellow-ship, not just the leader, and then Jesus chose a great christian-killer Paul to be the leader of them all.


The material can be a barrier, but mostly humans mess things up way way before mateiral necessity might force them to.

Where i work, they require professoinalism. I value hoensty. I can't do 'fake congenial.' so it's a question of aligning a true genuine congenial mind set even when the *holes don't deserve it. Is that a material motive for being spiritual?
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